which format will win?

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

A backup you cannot restore is not a backup, and theft requires deprivation!

But you can restore the back up and that is the point.

It may be more difficult to make the backup. It may be more difficult to resotre the back up. However, it is not impossible.

So to claim DRM "prevent useres from backing up their books", as was the original claim, is entirely incorrect.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

But you can restore the back up and that is the point.

It may be more difficult to make the backup. It may be more difficult to resotre the back up. However, it is not impossible.

So to claim DRM "prevent useres from backing up their books", as was the original claim, is entirely incorrect.

Cheers,
PKFFW

Unless of course you re-define the words.

Viewing this heated debate about the meaning of the word 'backup' as related to ebooks I am reminded of the great line from the old Paul Newman movie Cool Hand Luke:

“Uh, what we have hear is a failure to communicate.”

On the one hand I see the point that backup just means making a copy of the content of a HD that will allow restoration of that original HD or its replacement to the same state as at the time of the backup.

On the other hand I understand the useable backup argument as well. Here's an analogy:

Back before DVDs, back when there were tow competing video tape formats---BETA and VHS-- say I had selected the BETA option, purchase a BETA machine and a large number of tapes in that format. Wanting to assure that I would always be able to view my tapes I made copies of each and stored then in a safe place. Years later, the BETA format is defunct, all my original BRTA tapes are lost or discarded, and my BETA player is long gone. If I now retrieve all those copies, even if all are in perfect condition, all are totally useless.

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by Hamlet53

Back before DVDs, back when there were tow competing video tape formats---BETA and VHS-- say I had selected the BETA option, purchase a BETA machine and a large number of tapes in that format. Wanting to assure that I would always be able to view my tapes I made copies of each and stored then in a safe place. Years later, the BETA format is defunct, all my original BRTA tapes are lost or discarded, and my BETA player is long gone. If I now retrieve all those copies, even if all are in perfect condition, all are totally useless.

And in this analogy it would be inaccurate to say "The betamax format itself prevented me from backing up my movies" wouldn't it?

Cheers,
PKFFW

[orwell2k]

Just my $0.02 worth on the "ePub standard"...

I would like to say FB2 will win (it should win but won't, since it's not a widespread English language format). IMHO, ePub may be the industry-enforced de-facto standard, but it sucks big time. FB2 is far superior.

Originally Posted by Zetmolm

Well, fb2 is a format that came out of the Russian readers community, and their efforts have led to a situation where the Russians are far ahead of us in making copyrighted contents available in a way that makes readers, authors, and publishers happy. There are several legal Russian sites where you can read any book you want (in Russian, of course) for free online, or download them for a price of often less than 1 dollar. And all the legal rights and fees arfe taken care of!

I'm not familiar with the Russian copyright laws, but I have been using FB2 since about 2003 (on my crappy old Acer n10 PocketPC with Haali Reader) and I can tell you it is by far the best eBook format around.

There are also plenty of legit Russian eBook shops that sell in the FB2 format (classics as well as current works), and they have heaps of free Russian classics (similar to Gutenberg) on places like Lib.ru which either are available in FB2 (as well as HTML, TXT, RTF, etc.) or can be easily converted.

Look at most of the FB2 creation software (BookDesigner, OOoFBTools, etc.) and they are Russian developed apps (which can make it hard for us English speakers to use as the info is mostly in Russian!). And look at the development advances in FBReader and CoolReader - primarily driven by the Russian/Ukrainian developers because that's what their users need (LBook firmware is miles ahead of BeBook, Aztak, etc. on the Hanlin clones).

And FB2 focuses on content versus format, which makes sense when you have a diversity of readers with different screen sizes and so on. PDF has shown how poorly handled fixed formats are when you may want to see them on anything from a 5" to 10" display (even reflow only addresses part of the problem). FB2 is pure XML so the book has a heap of marked-up text than can then be interpreted by the reader of choice and displayed with almost limitless felxibility.

When I read an ePub I have maybe 3-5 zoom settings, 2-3 of which are useless (usually the range of settings is thus: (1) microscopic > (2) readable > (3) bigger but readable > (4) way too big (5) extremely large - a few words per screen). For me, (2) and (3) are the only usable options, and somehow the reader designers seem to find a way to choose the sizes such that I still find (2) a little small and (3) a little big!

And choosing fonts? Forget it! Unless they're embedded in the ePub, which very few publishers are doing as yet, then you're stuck with the crappy Adobe selected font and the strict sizing choices. And even if fonts are embedded, doesn't that seem a waste when you have to have them included in each ePub file? And embedded fonts are not a real choice, they are just an alternative to the system provided font.

With FB2 when I use CoolReader or FBReader (the two main choices for eInk devices) I can load up my favourite open type fonts and display my books with any font I choose, and usually with a choice of 10 or more sizes! I know to ePub readers this sounds amazing, but it's true. Added to that, CSS stylesheet settings can be used to finely tailor your FB2 reading experience. We are all individuals with our own tastes and styles, and you can thus specify little tweaks like the level of indenting for paragraphs, the line spacing within paras and between paras, margin settings, styles for title, subtitles, captions, and on and on.

Face it - ePub may be XML-based, but it is severley hampered when compared with a straight FB2 XML file that can be displayed to suit user needs. ePub reader software must provide these same features in future if it is to be a serious eBook format (again, IMHO only).

(Note: FB2 is not a perfect format - there are some limits, but I have been using eBooks in earnest for over 8 years and convert 99% of all my eBooks to FB2).

I like to view the ePub (English/US) vs FB2 (Russian) eBook situation as an analogy with something from the old space race days. The problem was to solve how to write in zero-G environments. NASA poured millions into creating the Zero-G pen - a sealed pen that could pump the ink to the tip to allow writing in zero-G. This is the ePub equivalent - it has all the bells and whistles but is extremely complex and expensive and prone to failure. The Russian solution is FB2 - use a pencil - it does what you need, has the necessary design features, and works well!

[John F]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

My point is that it is as technically correct to say "comet strike, fire or untimely death prevents you from making a backup" as it is to say "DRM prevents you from making a backup".

None of them prevent you from making a backup, they all merely prevent your backup from being usable. There is a difference.

Of course DRM is 100% controllable on your side. You simply remove the DRM. Problem solved. Hence the entire debate is pretty pointless, especially as everyone really knows what the person who originally made the claim meant. They simply didn't express themselves very well! Instead of simply admitting that everyone seems hell bent on arguing that what was claimed is actually correct or not correct!

It's actually quite amusing that many of the same people who constantly admonish kennyc for stating that copyright infringement is theft now themselves seem hell bent on arguing something that is not technically correct either.

Cheers,
PKFFW

Could you point me in the direction of how to remove the DRM from my LRX ebooks?

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by John F

Could you point me in the direction of how to remove the DRM from my LRX ebooks?

No I can not.

But as many on here will tell you, DRM does not work. There is no DRM that can not be broken. Therefore, if you work hard at it I'm sure you will find a way. That hard work would fall under the "DRM makes it more difficult for users to backup their ebooks" side of the argument rather than the "DRM prevents users from backing up their ebooks" side.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[jethro10]

Originally Posted by frabjous

No, it doesn't. First, notice that pair kerning is not used. Next, notice that it doesn't have f-series ligatures. Finally, it doesn't do end of line hyphenation. Notice that you've widened the line, which diminishes the effect of inconsistent whitespace created by lack of hyphenation. But there's no way I can use lines that long on my reader, at least not in portrait mode. But it in the right size for my reader (as my examples all were), and the problem would probably become more apparent. No footnotes either.

The only thing more impressive about it is that it uses a more complicated math example. But that's not the issue. Duplicating that in a PDF is still much easier.

I personally don't think that Computer/Latin Modern font isn't very good for most electronic displays, but font choice is a matter of taste.

But also, what are you using to render this? Not ADE, surely, nor the ePub renderer on a Sony 505, which won't do justified text.

How is the math done? SVG? MathML? If so, then it won't be supported by most renderers. Remember, my problem was never with the ePub format, but the renderers for it. If the renderers I had access to supported those things, I'd be fine with ePub. To repeat myself for the third time, I expect that I'll eventually prefer ePub to PDF, just not now.

(Maybe I could get something like that on my Sony if the entire thing were an SVG, but that's gotta be a lot of work. I wouldn't know how to do it without using PDF as an intermediary.)

I don't normally post.
But you seem to be a very special person with a very specific need that is irrelevant to most people in the world. Even avid book reading people where most of them will not even understand or want to understand what your on about.
Your arguments are perhaps more relevant for a niche forum or argument somewhere and are certainly detracting from the perceived topic of this thread.
For me, please, can you start your own thread about typesetting or whatever it is your interested in as it's starting to make this one unreadable - whatever type setting the thread is using!

Jeff

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by John F

Could you point me in the direction of how to remove the DRM from my LRX ebooks?

You should be able to download them as epub now that Sony had upgraded.

[jethro10]

My post, 2 above this, was in response to page 7 I think I'm now upto the end and read little else about the original topic.

Here is the correct answer "Whichever one is marketed the best"

Jeff

[John F]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

No I can not.

But as many on here will tell you, DRM does not work. There is no DRM that can not be broken. Therefore, if you work hard at it I'm sure you will find a way. That hard work would fall under the "DRM makes it more difficult for users to backup their ebooks" side of the argument rather than the "DRM prevents users from backing up their ebooks" side.

Cheers,
PKFFW

Thank you, with my luck, I'll probably get struck by a comet or aliens will invade my back yard next.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by John F

Thank you, with my luck, I'll probably get struck by a comet or aliens will invade my back yard next.

Or you could win the lotto and hire a staff to input your ebooks without drm....

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by frabjous

No, it doesn't. First, notice that pair kerning is not used. Next, notice that it doesn't have f-series ligatures. Finally, it doesn't do end of line hyphenation. Notice that you've widened the line, which diminishes the effect of inconsistent whitespace created by lack of hyphenation. But there's no way I can use lines that long on my reader, at least not in portrait mode. But it in the right size for my reader (as my examples all were), and the problem would probably become more apparent. No footnotes either.

The only thing more impressive about it is that it uses a more complicated math example. But that's not the issue. Duplicating that in a PDF is still much easier.

I personally don't think that Computer/Latin Modern font isn't very good for most electronic displays, but font choice is a matter of taste.

But also, what are you using to render this? Not ADE, surely, nor the ePub renderer on a Sony 505, which won't do justified text.

How is the math done? SVG? MathML? If so, then it won't be supported by most renderers. Remember, my problem was never with the ePub format, but the renderers for it. If the renderers I had access to supported those things, I'd be fine with ePub. To repeat myself for the third time, I expect that I'll eventually prefer ePub to PDF, just not now.

(Maybe I could get something like that on my Sony if the entire thing were an SVG, but that's gotta be a lot of work. I wouldn't know how to do it without using PDF as an intermediary.)

That was done with MathML. But as for the long lines, just make the window narrower and the long lines won't be so long. I know ePub does not currently support hyphenation. So yes, you can get word spacing that may be a tad larger then you'd like. The f-series ligatures is not really an issue at all. The idea is not to see how PDF duplicates an ePub but to show that ePub is capable of doing it and doing it well. Yes, PDF can duplicate anything that can be printed. But PDF cannot be reflowed. That ePub can be reflowed and still look good. If you reflow that PDF it won't look so good. So really, overall for readers, the ePub is way better despite anything you may feel is wrong with it.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Hamlet53

Sort of getting back to the original thread question. I certainly hope EPUB becomes the standard.

ePub already is the standard.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

There is no standard, and probably won't be one. You see lots of people with their own opinions on what is the best format, but the fact remains that there are many competing formats and no device/retailer supports them all.

What's best for a person and what's standard are two different things. What format is supported on most readers? That would be ePub. Even Apple is adopting ePub for the iPad. So yes, ePub is the standard. Amazon is the only one who has not realized this.