04-18-2019, 04:07 PM | #91 | ||
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I realize it’s dangerous to rely on Wikipedia, but it sounds like she first fabricated, and then borrowed what served her case. According to Wikipedia, the Rose of Raby Grant was quoting from doesn’t even exist, nor the history book he read. “Both Tanner's history and the novel are non-existent. It has been suggested that the title of the latter is derived from Guy Paget's 1937 biography of the same name.” When I looked, I only found one other book entitled Rose of Raby, but it was published in 2011. Last edited by Victoria; 04-18-2019 at 04:33 PM. |
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04-18-2019, 05:04 PM | #92 | ||
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Quite convenient that they died at the same time. And did any of the revisionists find records of a doctor ever being called in to tend to them? Quote:
Who are the other suspects? Henry Tudor? Well, since Tey/Grant cites the subsequent behavior of the princes' mother and sisters toward Richard as an exonerating factor, doesn't it follow that the marriage of a sister to Henry helps exonerate Henry? |
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04-18-2019, 05:56 PM | #93 | |||
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We don’t know who those children under the stairs were, and I read that 2 other children had been found there as well. It’s possible they belonged to servants who couldn’t afford anything better for their own children who’d died. Many a child’s unmarked grave has been found on the grounds of old maternity homes, orphanages, etc. What introduced some doubt for me, was reading that during renovations to the princes’ parents’ vault, there appeared to be two misidentified children. So that raises some legitimate questions - were the boys actually murdered? Quote:
But I don’t think it would be that unusual for several people in the same household to die in succession. They lived in close quarters, there were no vaccines and few effective treatments, etc. Quote:
But apparently historians have tried to make cases against other suspects, such as Buckingham. An article from the Independent mentions others. (I don’t don’t know if it’s a credible source). https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-10466190.html Last edited by Victoria; 04-18-2019 at 06:07 PM. |
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04-18-2019, 08:42 PM | #94 | |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPPMCINjVBg Last edited by Wearever; 04-18-2019 at 09:01 PM. |
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04-18-2019, 08:56 PM | #95 | |
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Tey's defense of Richard seems to be based largely on (1) Richard's looks, (2) disdain for More because his account was secondhand, (3) the subsequent behavior of the princes' mother, and (4) an expectation of tonypandy tainting whatever is inconvenient to the case she's making. Is that enough? Not to my mind. I'm reminded of the Casey Anthony case. She had a motive, she failed to report her child missing, she made up an elaborate lie about a kidnapping, she'd had a dead body in her car--and yet, somehow, her defense team explained away each piece of evidence as though it were disconnected from the whole pattern. Is that what the revisionists do with Richard? Seems like pieces of the evidence can be explained away with alternate interpretations, but it strains credulity that all of them need to be. If a couple of pieces in a jigsaw puzzle are missing, generally the picture is still obvious. |
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04-18-2019, 09:10 PM | #96 | |||
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For me, it doesn't really matter how they died, I want to know how and why it was kept a secret. Even Titulus Regius, which Henry VII tried so hard to destroy, eventually came to light, and even if the document itself hadn't, the attempt to make it a secret was no secret. These kids had a mother and siblings that should have wanted to talk about them later - one of them even became queen! So how was it possible hide the deaths of these children so effectively that we don't even know when they died? Quote:
Last edited by gmw; 04-18-2019 at 09:12 PM. |
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04-18-2019, 10:19 PM | #97 |
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That's the problem, it was kept secret. We don't know how or when they died. We don't know if they died in the tower. We only know they disappeared. We can make our best guess and follow a trail. It looks like Richard lll or even Henry Vll. We don't know for certain. Someone knew and they didn't talk or were killed themselves. I think follow the trail of who was killed instead of the Princes. There were many on both sides. Buckingham and Hastings were both killed by Richard for treason. They supported his claim to the throne but they also hated the Woodvilles.
Richards Brother the King Edward the lV obviously had no problem with the Woodville uncles surrounding his son Edward V. Richard was happy in York by accounts. On his death bed he reconsidered and appointed Richard Protector not the Woodvilles. A conciliatory act perhaps. But as soon as Richard comes within striking distance of the Woodvilles he acts against them. |
04-18-2019, 11:15 PM | #98 |
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04-18-2019, 11:20 PM | #99 | |
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04-19-2019, 04:22 AM | #100 | |
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So what we end up with is two armies that, ostensibly, want the same thing: to see Edward V protected and crowned. But neither trusts the other to see it done without disenfranchising their side's interests. (Meanwhile this poor 12yo kid is stuck in the middle; in theory he is an all-powerful king, but in practice he's just a pawn to other interests.) I'm expecting that Margaret Beaufort is going to sneak up in the middle of this confusion and take advantage - but haven't read that far yet. Details aside, the idea that we may have this sort of confusion seems a realistic interpretation, to me. I can almost imagine now, without Gregory's help, how the two boys are going to get lost in the jostling for position, and that this confusion may explain how their disappearance becomes a mystery. |
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04-19-2019, 09:11 AM | #101 | |
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04-19-2019, 09:43 AM | #102 | |
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Whatever else Margaret Beaufort was, she was obviously tough and resilient. She saw through four marriages and I lose count how many kings. Not sure whether she was likeable, but she certainly seems to have been formidable. |
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04-19-2019, 10:37 AM | #103 | ||
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Glad this came up; I too looked for these books. I find it a terrible betrayal of the reader to mix real sources with fake ones; even though Tey was writing fiction, she pretended that her characters were looking at actual, legitimate source material. Reinterpretation of the material to support her bias is one thing; total invention is quite another. |
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04-19-2019, 11:36 AM | #104 | |
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This is an interesting article about the potential use of DNA to evaluate the bones.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...-a8441936.html Quote:
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04-19-2019, 11:45 AM | #105 |
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Me too, and now I wonder if I’ve taken Tey all wrong? Making up your sources is a hanging offence in most contexts. But it’s perfectly legit in fiction. Maybe she just thought it would be fun topic for an novel, and was pretty casual about the research. She could be looking down highly amused to see people treat the novel like an academic paper.
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