Memoir or straight non-fiction for short non-fiction ebook?

[Gregg Bell]

Originally Posted by gmw

Indeed they have, and some even do it now. But do you notice anything about those authors? They are journalists first. Writing is what they did/do all the time, it's how they made/make their living. I may be mistaken, I don't know Gregg personally, but I don't get the impression that this would be an accurate description of him.

The OP starts with "I'm thinking I'll be able to generate some interest in my novels with some short non-fiction ebooks."

My opinion, and it is only that, is that it is unlikely to work that way for him.

Writers of science fiction may be able to call on their expertise to write science books (I read Asimov's "Guide to Science" books). Writers of crime books, if they have sufficient expertise, may be able to call on that expertise to write interesting non-fiction about how crime investigation takes place. In such special cases there may indeed be cross-over of readers between the two types of writing. But in less specialised areas there is less chance of such common interest between fact and fiction. If Gregg had suggested writing a travelogue that made use of the research and special knowledge he has gained from writing his fiction, then I could see some cross-over there. I don't see much cross-over between fiction and self-help (but I reserve the right to be proven wrong ).

gmw, I'm not going to prove you wrong. I agree with you. But you are a very intelligent person, as are the rest of the people in this forum. But the people buying most of the non-fiction in the broader public are not on your guys' intellectual level. You would not believe the crap out there (non-fiction) that sells well!. (Which makes it sound like I want to start writing crap lol and I'm sure a part of me does lol (j/k).) This one guy writes books on acne cures, movie stars, natural cures for heart disease, financial issues, golf tips and on and on and on. Yeah, some people trash his "books" (most less than 50 pages) but tons more give them 5 star reviews. And they sell!

It's a planned thing. They write these quick books. Do a cover in one hour. And pump them onto KDP Select. The constant repetitive posting and sales (and KDP's giving them top exposure via KDP Select) keep them high in search engines and they build off that. And like I said some of this stuff is utter crapola (and the formatting is terrible as well). And it sells!

[gmw]

Crap sells. Sure, I get that. I'm not going to argue, though I might question where you get the figures to say how much it sells (you know, the sort of inconvenient question that buyers of such crap forget to ask, like whether it has any basis in fact ).

What I'm missing is the link you made in the OP: "I'm thinking I'll be able to generate some interest in my novels with some short non-fiction ebooks." What makes you think that link exists? (For the sort of non-fiction you are considering.)

I'm also missing where the marketing skills required to make that stuff sell would be better placed on that stuff than it is on what you want to write.

I'm also missing any indication that you really want to write such stuff as anything other than a marketing tool for what you do want to write.

If you do want to write it, that's great, go ahead and do it. If it's just an attempt at marketing, then - before I spent too much time writing - I'd be looking for some more substantial evidence that the link you're looking for actually results in cross-over sales.

ETA: You might consider it as background research into another non-fiction project: what works and doesn't work in marketing self-published books. There seem to be some authors out there making more money from selling their "expertise" in self-publishing than they are from writing actual/original work of their own.

[Gregg Bell]

Originally Posted by gmw

Crap sells.

Hey, you know me pretty good.

Crap does sell however. And for quantitative proof just look at Amazon's sales ranking. Now I'm not saying crap outsells quality I'm just saying it sells. Flashy covers. Catchy titles. And the guts of the book stinks. See it all the time.

What I'm missing is the link you made in the OP: "I'm thinking I'll be able to generate some interest in my novels with some short non-fiction ebooks." What makes you think that link exists? (For the sort of non-fiction you are considering.)

Because it's SO MUCH easier to sell non-fiction than it is fiction. So much. You write what people are (in non-fiction) interested in. They go to Amazon and put that in the search engine. Voila! If you do your homework and see what's hot, you will come up on the first page of that search. Flashy cover, catchy title. You got it made.

And it's the opposite with fiction, especially non-genre fiction, which is what I like to write. I've gotten the reviews, done all the social media stuff and you still end up sliding back into invisibility. Yes, once you break through you can make it but until then good luck.

If it's just an attempt at marketing, then - before I spent too much time writing - I'd be looking for some more substantial evidence that the link you're looking for actually results in cross-over sales.

Here's the deal--you don't have to spend too much time writing it. 25 maybe 30 pages will do it. How long can that take? And if people like the book they'll check out the others, including the novels.

If you do want to write it, that's great, go ahead and do it.

I don't want to write it. I'm just looking to get some exposure. Oh, it might be fun to write it. See how it comes out. But no, I don't want to write it. I like writing my stuff.

[crich70]

Touche. If someone feels that they are able to write a particular book (or type of book) they will find it easier than if it is something they feel isn't quite right for them. I had thought from your earlier reply that you might have missed the bit at the end, which is the only reason I posted the earlier reply. In any case I wish you luck with your projects no matter how you structure it/them.

[gmw]

So I suspect you're over-simplifying it, Gregg. But if you want to give it a try then why not? Just be sure to keep us informed of the results.

To put my posts/comments in relevant context ...

In the past two years (since publishing my first book), I've never gotten beyond invisibility - so my advice/opinions on marketing could well be taken as "if he says it's wrong, it's probably the right thing to do" . I don't have a Facebook page, I don't twitter, I'm not linked-in, I don't have a video on youtube, and I'm not even sure what Google Plus is (never bothered to look). Have I missed any? Probably. I do have a blog, and after an early post about crickets singing in the silence, I have found myself being visited by thousands every month ... almost all of them spam!

I also sell ^&%%#$-all books.

Do I care? Yes, I suppose I do. I'd like people to read my books, I'd even like to make a bit of money out of it. But I'm not holding my breath, and it's not important enough to make me change my hermit lifestyle and get out to try and push them. I write because I have the bug, so my lack of sales is not anyone else's fault but mine.

Visibility is something an aspiring author needs if they want sales. How to get that visibility is the <hundred|thousand|million|pick-your-ambition-level> dollar question. As jandrew warned, it is possible to put some people off with the wrong sort of visibility. (Like jandrew, I'd probably turn away from any author that I found selling a mix of fiction and self-help - but I don't know whether our examples are any indication of what happens in the more general case).

I believe that Vydorscope's example and advice - giving away at least one of your books for free* - is probably some of the best advice there is for self-publishing. Permanently free books are available from Smashwords without registering. When I tried a give-away of my first book recently I was surprised at how few downloads there were, and I suspect this is partly because temporarily free books still require a person to register with Smashwords so they can then "purchase" with the coupon. (In my case the reduced downloads may also have been because I uploaded only an epub, so no preview was available on Smashwords - yes, they could have gone to Amazon for the preview, but a few more mouse clicks would have been required.)

* Which book to give away is open to question. I have tried some authors for free and never gone back. Might their later work have been worth it? I'll never know, because I've been put off by what they chose to make free.

There is some other advice out there that I think stands out as very important: you need a reasonable backlist of books in order to be taken seriously. People look at a self-published author with two or three titles to their name and think it's probably just another wannabe, not someone that's serious about the craft.

So I'm in no rush. I'll keep writing (I'm not fast, so none of this is going to happen quickly for me), and keep publishing whatever seems worth that extra effort. I have plans to try making some short stories freely available, in the hope of attracting people to what I write, but shorts don't come to me often and I have trouble justifying the time to consider editing, cover and blurb for a story that's only a few thousand words long. So I'm not sure when I'll get to that (my paying job has to take priority).

From this, I hope you can see that the idea of writing and publishing anything that isn't what I want to write seems like a pretty big waste of effort - to me.

ETA: Sorry about rambing, I probably should have answered before my evening whiskey.

[crich70]

ETA: Sorry about rambing, I probably should have answered before my evening whiskey.

Does that explain the missing l? I've been up too late and am in a goofy frame of mind.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by crich70

Does that explain the missing l? I've been up too late and am in a goofy frame of mind.

Nope, that's just fading eyesight and needing to get my glasses checked. (It took me a while to see what was missing even after you pointed it out. )

[Gregg Bell]

Originally Posted by gmw

if you want to give it a try then why not?

gmw.

I enjoyed your drunken reply.

I think we suffer from the same writerly delusion: good writing will eventually out. (the creme rises to the top). And that is just that--a delusion. There are endless great books out there that will never be read. I mean, masterpieces. Fifty years ago it wouldn't have been the case. Some writing teacher or writers' group member would've recognized the brilliance of somebody's work and pointed it out to somebody who pointed it out to somebody else who eventually pointed it out to an editor or an agent and the book was discovered. That's not to say it can't happen today. But it's also not to say that a meteor won't hit the earth and kill us all before you read this.

Visibility is something an aspiring author needs if they want sales.

Say what? If they want sales??? A long time ago a writer friend told me: "If you're not writing to be read (sales), you're keeping a journal."

Now, do I want the money from the sales? I suppose so, but it's much more important to me to be read, to get validation that my stuff is worth anything, to know that the hard work I've been putting into my craft is paying off.

I believe that Vydorscope's example and advice - giving away at least one of your books for free* - is probably some of the best advice there is for self-publishing.

That can work for some people. It didn't work for me. I gave away 2k of one novel and it led to a handful (Less than ten) reviews and (again, less than ten) sales. And believe me you will get some terrible reviews if you give your book away. People click on it just because it's free. Maybe they click on it just because of the cover. Then they read it and are like, "This book stunk. I'm glad I didn't waste my money on it." And all because they didn't take the time to read the blurb (like a paying customer certainly would). My two worst reviews from that self-same permanently free (no longer btw) book were from freebies.

Short fiction doesn't sell. There is some really well written collections of short stories out there that the writer can't even give away. (Which doesn't mean I'm not going to try it. Maybe I'll be the first to make it!)

What I have done is put a lot of free flash fiction (1K or less) on my website. It's drawn a fair amount of attention (29 hits two days ago) but hasn't led to sales. (And I've had to get the word out on Twitter to get the hits I did.)

From this, I hope you can see that the idea of writing and publishing anything that isn't what I want to write seems like a pretty big waste of effort - to me.

See, now I see the pretty big waste of effort being writing the stuff I want to write that nobody even knows it exists. Hey, if it was up to me I wouldn't to any marketing. Just live the writer's life. Wonderful. But also fantasy! The world is what it is and if I have to write some short non-fiction to get my other stuff noticed I'll do it. (And I hardly agree with jandrew about people looking over some books and seeing a non-fiction book in the mix and turning up their nose and walking away. If a book grabs them it grabs them. And if they're not interested in the non-fiction or fiction for that matter they just don't look at it.)

Yes, my brand might be best if I stayed consistent with the serious fiction that I like to write. But it will also stay invisible and unread. If I have to do some things not to my utter preference to get that going, I'll do it.

Lastly is considering trying Amazon's monopoly grabbing KDP Select, something I have avoided like the plague (on principal). But from what I've heard the books in KDP Select enjoy such preferential positioning in SEO searches etc etc that it is a tremendous advantage to be in there.

So it seems I'm considering abandoning all integrity! LOL (Only half kidding.)

[crich70]

Originally Posted by gmw

Nope, that's just fading eyesight and needing to get my glasses checked. (It took me a while to see what was missing even after you pointed it out. )

Ah, gotcha. I can empathize there. I wear bifocals now days myself and see the eye Dr. once a year (due to diabetes). So far my eyes aren't too bad, but there is always the chance of problems later on down the road.

[gmw]

Gregg, What else can I say but: if we were all the same it would be a boring world.

It was interesting to read of your experience with giving away a book for free. Even though I didn't manage to give many books away, those few did generate a handful of sales of the subsequent books in the series (I suppose having a series can be helpful when trying this approach).

I'm not so delusional as to think cream must always rise to the top (and it's certainly not the only thing that does ). It seems very likely that excellent books have gone unnoticed long before the glut of self-publishing on the Internet.

I've heard the "If you're not writing to be read (sales), you're keeping a journal." suggestion before, but that overlooks a few things. Yes, if all we wanted to do was write, we could skip all the hard editing/cover/blurb stuff and just write (and some days that's really tempting). But undertaking the work required to publish means you probably hope to be read, however ...

Not everything we write is publishable. (Well, not in the world according to me ). We're always learning and sometimes we make mistakes. If it doesn't work for me then I'm not inflicting it on anyone else. We shouldn't expect that every time we put pixels to screen we will produce a masterpiece.

Not everything we publish will sell, some just never find an audience for a variety of reasons.

Everyone has different expectations. I am being read, but only by a very small audience. They seem to like it. That, and satisfying my own cravings to write, has been enough for me - so far.

Everyone weighs costs and benefits differently. Yes, I'd really like to be read more widely, but I have to weigh that against what I'm willing to put into marketing. I've been happy to do the work needed to produce what I think is a good quality end result (I'm not claiming perfection), but I can do most of that from here in my hermit cave. Actually going out into the wilds beyond the cave is something I have trouble pushing myself to do. (And my few attempts to do it before now have not been encouraging - as Homer Simpson would say, "if at first you don't succeed - give up." )

Time/patience. I am published and the books are out there (along with the truth and other mythological creatures). So they're not selling much yet, they might. And if they don't sell this year maybe I'll become an overnight success in another 10 years when I have more books out and one or more of them start to garner attention for one reason or another. Or, maybe, I will eventually get out of my cave and start shouting a bit louder. And even if none of that happens, they are published and at some point (hopefully in the far distant future) will enter the public domain ... who knows, maybe they'll become a book kids are forced to read in school. That'll learn 'em! In the meantime, I'll keep writing and publishing as much as my time and inclination allows.


None of this is trying to advise others to take my wait-and-see approach to marketing. It's lazy, that's all. I don't want to expend my time and effort that way, I'd rather write.

[Gregg Bell]

Originally Posted by gmw

Gregg, What else can I say but: if we were all the same it would be a boring world.

It was interesting to read of your experience with giving away a book for free. Even though I didn't manage to give many books away, those few did generate a handful of sales of the subsequent books in the series (I suppose having a series can be helpful when trying this approach).

I'm not so delusional as to think cream must always rise to the top (and it's certainly not the only thing that does ). It seems very likely that excellent books have gone unnoticed long before the glut of self-publishing on the Internet.

I've heard the "If you're not writing to be read (sales), you're keeping a journal." suggestion before, but that overlooks a few things. Yes, if all we wanted to do was write, we could skip all the hard editing/cover/blurb stuff and just write (and some days that's really tempting). But undertaking the work required to publish means you probably hope to be read, however ...

Not everything we write is publishable. (Well, not in the world according to me ). We're always learning and sometimes we make mistakes. If it doesn't work for me then I'm not inflicting it on anyone else. We shouldn't expect that every time we put pixels to screen we will produce a masterpiece.

Not everything we publish will sell, some just never find an audience for a variety of reasons.

Everyone has different expectations. I am being read, but only by a very small audience. They seem to like it. That, and satisfying my own cravings to write, has been enough for me - so far.

Everyone weighs costs and benefits differently. Yes, I'd really like to be read more widely, but I have to weigh that against what I'm willing to put into marketing. I've been happy to do the work needed to produce what I think is a good quality end result (I'm not claiming perfection), but I can do most of that from here in my hermit cave. Actually going out into the wilds beyond the cave is something I have trouble pushing myself to do. (And my few attempts to do it before now have not been encouraging - as Homer Simpson would say, "if at first you don't succeed - give up." )

Time/patience. I am published and the books are out there (along with the truth and other mythological creatures). So they're not selling much yet, they might. And if they don't sell this year maybe I'll become an overnight success in another 10 years when I have more books out and one or more of them start to garner attention for one reason or another. Or, maybe, I will eventually get out of my cave and start shouting a bit louder. And even if none of that happens, they are published and at some point (hopefully in the far distant future) will enter the public domain ... who knows, maybe they'll become a book kids are forced to read in school. That'll learn 'em! In the meantime, I'll keep writing and publishing as much as my time and inclination allows.


None of this is trying to advise others to take my wait-and-see approach to marketing. It's lazy, that's all. I don't want to expend my time and effort that way, I'd rather write.

gmw, You sound like you are at peace with where your writing is at and that is enviable. I, as evidenced by this thread, have not been at peace about mine. But I'm calming down a little. I have had a couple of years of serious frustration. Maybe the Universe is using that to prepare me for something. Maybe I'm supposed to become an MR moderator or something. (JUST KIDDING, MODERATORS--DO NOT PUNISH ME!)

But yeah, I'm calming down. I hardly want to write "How to Cure Your Dandruff" and have it next to my serious novels. I guess I'm calming down and getting less desperate too. What's bugging me is that I believe my books can compete out there if they just get the chance. Others are figuring out how to get the exposure why not me?

As of now I'm no longer thinking of writing anything but fiction. I may collar ten or so of my flash fiction together, put it on on KDP Select as an e-book and see what happens. But the "Hair Loss Cure in 24 Hours!" stuff is done.

For now.

[gmw]

Obviously, I think that's a good decision, Gregg. We put too much of ourselves into all the parts of our writing to expend it carelessly.

Exposure comes in many different ways, including luck. Work is a big part, and you've been putting that in (well, more than me). But patience is the other one. As just one example, Hugh Howey was 7 books and 2 years* into his publishing** apprenticeship before his success with Wool. From his website come these words:

This is going to sound strange, but you are MUCH better off with your 10th work exploding than your 1st work. You’ll never have quiet time to crank out quality material ever again. And when your backlist matches the growth of your first breakout, you’ll do very well for yourself. Be patient.

I've only just found that quote, researched in order to make this post, but it makes me quite happy. I'm two years but only three books into my publishing apprenticeship, only seven books to go!

Of course, it pays to remember that the journey is different for everyone. I read about a lot of different experiences before I published my first book. They kept my expectations from getting too high, and helped me to understand that this was a long-haul thing, not something that would happen the moment I hit the publish button.


* Measured from date of his first published book as given in Wikipedia.
** As opposed to his writing apprenticeship, which has presumably been much longer.

[Gregg Bell]

Originally Posted by gmw

Obviously, I think that's a good decision, Gregg. We put too much of ourselves into all the parts of our writing to expend it carelessly.

Exposure comes in many different ways, including luck. Work is a big part, and you've been putting that in (well, more than me). But patience is the other one. As just one example, Hugh Howey was 7 books and 2 years* into his publishing** apprenticeship before his success with Wool. From his website come these words:


I've only just found that quote, researched in order to make this post, but it makes me quite happy. I'm two years but only three books into my publishing apprenticeship, only seven books to go!

Of course, it pays to remember that the journey is different for everyone. I read about a lot of different experiences before I published my first book. They kept my expectations from getting too high, and helped me to understand that this was a long-haul thing, not something that would happen the moment I hit the publish button.


* Measured from date of his first published book as given in Wikipedia.
** As opposed to his writing apprenticeship, which has presumably been much longer.

Yeah gmw. Good post. (First one here I've ever read with footnotes!) Other people are making it without writing schlocky self-help books. We can too. Right?

And you never know, good things might happen a lot faster than we think.