The painful side of the mobile bleeding edge - Page 4

yvanleterrible · 11-14-2007, 04:47 PM

I'm not sure about that. Apple is bigger but the computer part might not be as big.

Steven Lyle Jordan · 11-16-2007, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yvanleterrible

I'm not sure about that. Apple is bigger but the computer part might not be as big.

Huh? Apple IS the HW and SW... I consider it one company. And I think based on revenue, Dell as a company is much bigger than Apple ($57Bn versus $25M, respectively).

But actually, I was just needling you...

nekokami · 11-16-2007, 11:38 AM

Personally, I like Ubuntu these days. But I still run 4 OS's (including PalmOS) at home. It used to be 5, but I don't have the Solaris workstation running anymore. I use Windows the least, because I'm tired of dealing with viruses. That's probably in part because of the dominance of the platform -- if OSX or Ubuntu had a larger share of the market, there might be more malware for them (though my understanding is that viruses are a lot harder to write for unix).

I think the main issue with Apple is that their hardware is so expensive. Now that their OS is able to run on Intel chips, I think it will be very interesting to see what happens in the OS market. OSX still won't run on off-the-shelf commodity PCs, but that day could yet come.

NatCh · 11-16-2007, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nekokami

... if OSX or Ubuntu had a larger share of the market, there might be more malware for them ....

That's one of my pet peeves. We use Lotus Notes at work for e-mail and a proverbial butt-load of other stuff, and one of the major advantages is that it's almost totally immune to e-mail viruses/worms/etc. because it's number 2 in popularity.

But of course, the powers that be have decided that we're switching to a Microsoft solution, so I'm looking for a massive spike in the viral issues we'll have to deal with.

The reason they want to switch from LN to Exchange? They don't like having multiply forwarded e-mails show the oldest part of the conversation at the bottom and the newest part at the top. I'd be chuckling imagining their faces when they realize that all email systems do it that way, except that the real kicker is that I know that the folks in question don't actually handle their own e-mails.

No, they have their AAs print them out, and they hand-write replies for the AAs to type into the system to send back out. I guess they'll still see the order on paper, unless their AAs change it around to keep from having to suffer the screams.

tompe · 11-16-2007, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatCh

The reason they want to switch from LN to Exchange? They don't like having multiply forwarded e-mails show the oldest part of the conversation at the bottom and the newest part at the top. I'd be chuckling imagining their faces when they realize that all email systems do it that way,

That is not true. Gnus for example does not do it that way by default. And in most system you can configure how you want it and get away from the stupid top posting default that is common.

NatCh · 11-16-2007, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tompe

That is not true. Gnus for example does not do it that way by default. And in most system you can configure how you want it and get away from the stupid top posting default that is common.

I'm not arguing, just trying to make sure I understand what you're saying:

Are you saying that if I send you an e-mail, and you replied back to me, that there are e-mail systems that can parse the resulting text to put my original message at the top of what I received back from you and your response below?

Like this:

<< Original message from NatCh >>

<< Reply from tompe >>

And then when I replied back to you again, my new response would go at the bottom of that new reply?

If I'm understanding what you're saying, then I'm afraid I'm skeptical (as in have to see it to really accept it), I just don't see how a program could reliably parse the message sections and put them in order like that. That doesn't mean it can't be done, of course, but I'm still skeptical.

yvanleterrible · 11-16-2007, 02:32 PM

This is a formating that should be done by the sender to write after a message instead of on top. The same thing as when we quote here on site. Some people write on top, it's confusing.

NatCh · 11-16-2007, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yvanleterrible

This is a formating that should be done by the sender to write after a message instead of on top. The same thing as when we quote here on site. Some people write on top, it's confusing.

Well, sure, if it's a manual process, then it could be done with any e-mail system, but the newest to oldest sorting is so universal that I'd be confused unless I knew to expect it.

Case in point: I used the Sony ConnStore contact form to point out to them that they had one book listed under the wrong author's name. They sent me the usual replay with the "put your text between these marks, and if we don't hear from you for 48 hours we'll consider this issue resolved." When I got it and read that, I went and looked at the book again and saw that it was still under the wrong author, so I replied back, between their silly marks, saying that it was still wrong. Today I got a second message of the same type with the same 48 hours note. I was in the process of replying to it again when I realized that there was some actual communication (that explained that it would take a while to fix but had been forwarded to the right people) below the reply instructions that I'd missed because it was at the bottom.

If it was a manual process and everyone didn't follow it (as I expect most folks wouldn't, being used to the other), I anticipate mass confusion throughout our institution. It would have to be automagic in order for it to not be a disaster, I'm afraid. Frankly, with a lot of our users, even if it is automagic, it's very likely to be a disaster.

tompe · 11-16-2007, 04:52 PM

Most mail clients can be configured to use either of the two methods (top posting or bottom posting) so it is not a manual process. Now when I look for how to do it in Exchange I cannot find it. Can that really be true? I think I have to visit a friend that uses Windows and try to change the mail client configuration since she is top posting to mailing lists and nearly nobody else do it so it is irritating.

NatCh · 11-16-2007, 05:07 PM

But it's just for the current installment of the mail, is it?

If you have your's set for bottom posting will it re-order the earlier messages?

For instance, if I forwarded you a message that was something like this:

<< Message 3 >>
<< Message 2 >>
<< Message 1 >>

(where 1 is the oldest message and 3 is the newest)

Would you see that, or would you see this?

<< Message 1 >>
<< Message 2 >>
<< Message 3 >>

If you forwarded it on to someone else with bottom posting enabled on you e-mail, would they see this?

<< Message 1 >>
<< Message 2 >>
<< Message 3 >>
<< Message 4 >>

or this?

<< Message 3 >>
<< Message 2 >>
<< Message 1 >>
<< Message 4 >>

Or something else entirely?

I'm still rather confused as to what you're trying to tell me.

TallMomof2 · 11-16-2007, 05:48 PM

I would love to have the one device that can do it all but haven't found it. I have my home built desktop running on XP and I'm thinking about throwing in another hard drive and installing Ubuntu and playing with that to see what it can do for me.

I have a Vista UMPC but Vista is a dog and the portability issues mentioned in the first post make it less than "ultra-mobile". Battery life is a joke. Nice big screen for reading eBooks but you have to tote along the AC cord. Basically, it's used as the "upstairs" computer.

Never liked the smart phones, don't want to be in contact with everyone all the time, hate the itty bitty keypads (my eyes are pushing 50yo) and the upfront cost keep me away. I use a RAZR v3.x and it's all the cell phone I need even though I'm lusting after the soon to be released LG Venus. Maybe next spring.

I love my PDA, Palm TX, it's not perfect but I can easily input via Graffiti and keep all my day to day info at my fingertips. The large screen (for a PDA) makes reading eBooks really nice. I can also store pictures and videos. It's an MP3 player. There is an option for email but I don't want to be in touch that much. WiFi works, the TX isn't much for web browsing but it's fine if I need to get a quick map or weather report as long as I'm in a hot spot. I also worry about Palm's future or lack of a future but even if Palm ceases operations I should still be good with this PDA for a while. The most important functions for me are reading eBooks, calender, and contacts.

I use a generic MP3 player, all I want to do is listen to tunes.

I've also been looking at the eInk readers but I think I'll wait and see what develops.

The bleeding edge is not for me.

tompe · 11-16-2007, 07:31 PM

Regarding top and bottom posting. If you have a big organisation you can have a policy but then the tools have to support this policy and it seems to my surprise that the support in Exchange is minimal. But there was some macro support that made it easier to bottom post. Automatic re-ordering seems like a bad idea but if the first person responding use the correct policy then other will follow this for otherwise it becomes hard to read.

But your original point about it being no difference between LN and Exchange in this regard seems to be correct and I have learnt something new about the Windows world.

NatCh · 11-17-2007, 12:45 AM

I actually wasn't trying to make a point, I was honestly trying to understand.

Yes I was and am skeptical, but I was prepared to be impressed too find my skepticism misplaced. Guess I'll have to consider the jury still out on that one for now.

JSWolf · 11-17-2007, 01:03 AM

If Commodore had not mishandled the AMiga, Apple would be a much smaller company then it is now. The Amiga had the opportunity to take Apple's place as the #2 computer. But Commodore ran it into the ground and lost what was a wonderful computer.

TadW · 11-17-2007, 08:31 AM

Well there are more and more people turning their PCs into Hackintoshs. So I believe there is a genuine interest in Mac (the software at least).

Jon, I agree, it's a great pity what Commodore did to Amiga. There was a time when the Amiga blew any other PC away in terms of innovation and capabilities.

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11-14-2007, 04:47 PM	#46
yvanleterrible Reborn Paper User Posts: 8,616 Karma: 15446734 Join Date: May 2006 Location: Que Nada Device: iPhone8, iPad Air	I'm not sure about that. Apple is bigger but the computer part might not be as big.

11-16-2007, 11:38 AM	#48
nekokami fruminous edugeek Posts: 6,745 Karma: 551260 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northeast US Device: iPad, eBw 1150	Personally, I like Ubuntu these days. But I still run 4 OS's (including PalmOS) at home. It used to be 5, but I don't have the Solaris workstation running anymore. I use Windows the least, because I'm tired of dealing with viruses. That's probably in part because of the dominance of the platform -- if OSX or Ubuntu had a larger share of the market, there might be more malware for them (though my understanding is that viruses are a lot harder to write for unix). I think the main issue with Apple is that their hardware is so expensive. Now that their OS is able to run on Intel chips, I think it will be very interesting to see what happens in the OS market. OSX still won't run on off-the-shelf commodity PCs, but that day could yet come.

11-16-2007, 02:32 PM	#52
yvanleterrible Reborn Paper User Posts: 8,616 Karma: 15446734 Join Date: May 2006 Location: Que Nada Device: iPhone8, iPad Air	This is a formating that should be done by the sender to write after a message instead of on top. The same thing as when we quote here on site. Some people write on top, it's confusing.

11-16-2007, 04:52 PM	#54
tompe Grand Sorcerer Posts: 7,452 Karma: 7185064 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Linköpng, Sweden Device: Kindle Voyage, Nexus 5, Kindle PW	Most mail clients can be configured to use either of the two methods (top posting or bottom posting) so it is not a manual process. Now when I look for how to do it in Exchange I cannot find it. Can that really be true? I think I have to visit a friend that uses Windows and try to change the mail client configuration since she is top posting to mailing lists and nearly nobody else do it so it is irritating.

11-16-2007, 05:07 PM	#55
NatCh Gizmologist Posts: 11,615 Karma: 929550 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Republic of Texas Embassy at Jackson, TN Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3	But it's just for the current installment of the mail, is it? If you have your's set for bottom posting will it re-order the earlier messages? For instance, if I forwarded you a message that was something like this: << Message 3 >> << Message 2 >> << Message 1 >> (where 1 is the oldest message and 3 is the newest) Would you see that, or would you see this? << Message 1 >> << Message 2 >> << Message 3 >> If you forwarded it on to someone else with bottom posting enabled on you e-mail, would they see this? << Message 1 >> << Message 2 >> << Message 3 >> << Message 4 >> or this? << Message 3 >> << Message 2 >> << Message 1 >> << Message 4 >> Or something else entirely? I'm still rather confused as to what you're trying to tell me.

11-16-2007, 05:48 PM	#56
TallMomof2 Kindlephilia Posts: 2,017 Karma: 1139255 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Snowpacolypse 2010 Device: Too many to count	I would love to have the one device that can do it all but haven't found it. I have my home built desktop running on XP and I'm thinking about throwing in another hard drive and installing Ubuntu and playing with that to see what it can do for me. I have a Vista UMPC but Vista is a dog and the portability issues mentioned in the first post make it less than "ultra-mobile". Battery life is a joke. Nice big screen for reading eBooks but you have to tote along the AC cord. Basically, it's used as the "upstairs" computer. Never liked the smart phones, don't want to be in contact with everyone all the time, hate the itty bitty keypads (my eyes are pushing 50yo) and the upfront cost keep me away. I use a RAZR v3.x and it's all the cell phone I need even though I'm lusting after the soon to be released LG Venus. Maybe next spring. I love my PDA, Palm TX, it's not perfect but I can easily input via Graffiti and keep all my day to day info at my fingertips. The large screen (for a PDA) makes reading eBooks really nice. I can also store pictures and videos. It's an MP3 player. There is an option for email but I don't want to be in touch that much. WiFi works, the TX isn't much for web browsing but it's fine if I need to get a quick map or weather report as long as I'm in a hot spot. I also worry about Palm's future or lack of a future but even if Palm ceases operations I should still be good with this PDA for a while. The most important functions for me are reading eBooks, calender, and contacts. I use a generic MP3 player, all I want to do is listen to tunes. I've also been looking at the eInk readers but I think I'll wait and see what develops. The bleeding edge is not for me.

11-16-2007, 07:31 PM	#57
tompe Grand Sorcerer Posts: 7,452 Karma: 7185064 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Linköpng, Sweden Device: Kindle Voyage, Nexus 5, Kindle PW	Regarding top and bottom posting. If you have a big organisation you can have a policy but then the tools have to support this policy and it seems to my surprise that the support in Exchange is minimal. But there was some macro support that made it easier to bottom post. Automatic re-ordering seems like a bad idea but if the first person responding use the correct policy then other will follow this for otherwise it becomes hard to read. But your original point about it being no difference between LN and Exchange in this regard seems to be correct and I have learnt something new about the Windows world.

11-17-2007, 12:45 AM	#58
NatCh Gizmologist Posts: 11,615 Karma: 929550 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Republic of Texas Embassy at Jackson, TN Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3	I actually wasn't trying to make a point, I was honestly trying to understand. Yes I was and am skeptical, but I was prepared to be impressed too find my skepticism misplaced. Guess I'll have to consider the jury still out on that one for now.

11-17-2007, 01:03 AM	#59
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 74,559 Karma: 129670952 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	If Commodore had not mishandled the AMiga, Apple would be a much smaller company then it is now. The Amiga had the opportunity to take Apple's place as the #2 computer. But Commodore ran it into the ground and lost what was a wonderful computer.

11-17-2007, 08:31 AM	#60
TadW Uebermensch Posts: 2,583 Karma: 1094606 Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Italy Device: Kindle	Well there are more and more people turning their PCs into Hackintoshs. So I believe there is a genuine interest in Mac (the software at least). Jon, I agree, it's a great pity what Commodore did to Amiga. There was a time when the Amiga blew any other PC away in terms of innovation and capabilities.

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