Which one should I get now?

[eschwartz]

In other words, Amazon still isn't any more closed than Kobo... peoples, you can feel free to buy any ereader device you want without worrying about the "closed ecosystem"...

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by eschwartz View Post
The MOBI/AZW3 format is just as much open as EPUB is.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

That's not so. Can you edit Mobi or AZW3 using just what comes with your OS? Nope. But you can ePub.

Yes, you can edit Mobi & KF8, but you need third party tools to do so. ePub just requires a text editor and a program that can ZIP/unZIP. So how can you say Mobi/KF8 is just as open when it's not?

[Unnecessary personal comment deleted - MODERATOR].

The real main reason that MOBI/AZW3 is closed is that Amazon has never released information on the format. Only by reverse engineering has anyone ever been able to create a file in this format, or by using Amazon and only Amazon tools. That is as closed as it gets. ePub is an open standard and well documented, available to all for free.

Dale

[eschwartz]

Um, yeah, and considering that the AZW3-calibre format, if you'd like to call it that, is fully compatible, your point is???

Let me point out the obvious to you, which I have already stated: a fully reverse-engineered proprietary format is a rather hollow claim. For all intents and purposes, besides for people who wish to sit in a circle and meditate on the nature of words, it is not a closed system.

The concept behind making a proprietary format is an attempt to prevent others from making their own tools to deal with such formats. Sometimes, they fail.

There is a legal and aboveboard reverse-engineered implementation of MOBI/AZW3 (actually more than one) which is an open format spec, and thus my AZW3-calibre files (byte-identical to your "pure" AZW3 files) are an open format.

I could just as easily say that some ZIP implementations are closed, therefore EPUB which is based off of ZIP is a closed format.

[khalleron]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Let me point out the obvious to you, which I have already stated: a fully reverse-engineered proprietary format is a rather hollow claim. For all intents and purposes, besides for people who wish to sit in a circle and meditate on the nature of words, it is not a closed system.

Some of us believe that words have actual meanings, and not just the ones you want to assign to them.

Language: it's purpose is to communicate and not to twist so that you think you're winning a losing argument.

[dickloraine]

Isn't there a difference between a format and the drm? Epub is an open format. Mobi not (I'm no lawyer, but couldn't amazon just decide to forbid the use of mobi to anyone? Maybe not important for readers, but for authors who may wish to sell mobis through their own channels).
The ecosystems are of course all closed. Thats because in addition to the format there is drm.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by khalleron

Some of us believe that words have actual meanings, and not just the ones you want to assign to them.

Language: it's purpose is to communicate and not to twist so that you think you're winning a losing argument.

Would that explain why you claimed you refuse to buy a Kindle because Amazon is a closed ecosystem?
Neglecting to note that Kobo is also a closed ecosystem.


I believe I am being perfectly consistent, as I have stated my belief out in the open that any format for which there is a published spec is an open format, regardless of who used it first. Reverse-engineering is a perfectly valid way of breaking open a format.
Nor am I the only person to hold this opinion.

Which is more than I could say for you, getting indignant about closed systems and then buying a Kobo, which is a closed system.

Kobo

1. sells DRMed books to the same extent Amazon does -- closed ecosystem.
2. uses an internal proprietary and reverse-engineered (open to me, closed to you) KEPUB format.

I await your belated explanation for the disparity.
(I couldn't care less what you think, but please do not share your FUD with others.)

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by dickloraine

Isn't there a difference between a format and the drm? Epub is an open format. Mobi not (I'm no lawyer, but couldn't amazon just decide to forbid the use of mobi to anyone? Maybe not important for readers, but for authors who may wish to sell mobis through their own channels).
The ecosystems are of course all closed. Thats because in addition to the format there is drm.

Amazon is perfectly within their legal right to forbid the use of their own MOBI conversion implementation, as in fact they have done for the purpose of resale.
Neertheless, every DRM-free store sells MOBI, this is because there are multiple other implementations. Including one by Mobipocket, which cannot now be withdrawn.

It is difficult to keep a format closed. No license restricts the rights of people who obtained a MOBI from reverse-engineering it.

(And yes, the original statement I took exception to was about the DRM and the concept of "I won't give money to companies that use DRM, I refuse to use Alf to liberate my books, because I wish to make a stand against DRM" -- a worthwhile cause (but not one I care about) which unfortunately precludes buying from Kobo as well as Amazon, and also says nothing about reader hardware or format specs.

[speakingtohe]

There are no closed ecosystems in the real world AFAIK. Could be mistaken.
I could buy another reader or DeDRM books.
I have only epub readers at present as that is what I prefer, but nothing against the others. I can read almost any other format, even the defunct ones on my other devices without removing DRM. And I can, if I want to, remove the DRM.

Seems a silly thing to obsess about

Helen

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

There are no closed ecosystems in the real world AFAIK. Could be mistaken.
I could buy another reader or DeDRM books.
I have only epub readers at present as that is what I prefer, but nothing against the others. I can read almost any other format, even the defunct ones on my other devices without removing DRM. And I can, if I want to, remove the DRM.

Seems a silly thing to obsess about

Helen

You are assuredly looking at at least one closed system right now, and the law of averages says a minimum of three.
DRM is absolutely a closed ecosystem, that is rather the point.
The most famous closed ecosystem is Apple, for obvious reasons.

The issue at hand is someone proselytizing their Kobo by saying the Kobo store is an open ecosystem and the Amazon store isn't.
Such lies should certainly not be present in the dedicated forum for advising inexperienced individuals which should be their first ereader.

[JSWolf]

A closed system/walled garden is when you are FORCED to buy from just one shop when the eBook has DRM. That makes any Kindle eInk Reader part of a closed system/walled garden. An ePub capable Reader that can use Adept DRM is not closed/walled.

Please forget the fact that some of us can remove DRM and convert. That's irrelevant to the discussion.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

A closed system/walled garden is when you are FORCED to buy from just one shop when the eBook has DRM.

You might as well say ... "A closed system/walled garden is when you are FORCED to buy from one shop when the eBook is in KePub format."

The fact that you can download or buy mobi books from many different sources/vendors means that the Kindle system is not closed.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by rcentros

You might as well say ... "A closed system/walled garden is when you are FORCED to buy from one shop when the eBook is in KePub format."

The fact that you can download or buy mobi books from many different sources/vendors means that the Kindle system is not closed.

But, you don't have to buy any kepub from Kobo if you don't want to. Kobo handles standard adept DRM. So buying or downloading as kepub is a choice that's not forced.

[howyoudoin]

To paraphrase JSWolf:

But, you don't have to buy any azw from Amazon if you don't want to. Kindle handles standard mobi. So buying or downloading as azw is a choice that's not forced.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by howyoudoin

To paraphrase JSWolf:

But, you don't have to buy any azw from Amazon if you don't want to. Kindle handles standard mobi. So buying or downloading as azw is a choice that's not forced.

"azw" is just a file extension; it's not a file type. Depending on what you use to download it, a file with an "azw" extension can be either a Mobi or a KF8 file.

[howyoudoin]

Originally Posted by HarryT

"azw" is just a file extension; it's not a file type. Depending on what you use to download it, a file with an "azw" extension can be either a Mobi or a KF8 file.

For all practical purposes, it is a file type. A mobi reader can read a mobi but not an azw that happens to be a mobi.