Kindle or EPUB?

[nowthenmobile]

That's a shame. I was hoping to use the McNutt defense in court.

This discussion has been very interesting. Having read all the comments I would have to say that personally I don't see a problem, morally, with removing DRM to enable backup. The question of its legality is beyond me.

Could it be possible that what Amazon (and others) are selling are not eBooks but the license to read eBooks in a circumstance prescribed by Amazon (ie only on a Kindle)? When we buy one of their eBooks we are entering into that agreement? (We always have the choice not to enter that agreement.) If so then it might be helpful to see the situation as being analagous with an OEM Microsoft Windows license. When we buy that license it comes with a given PC. If, some time in the future, we decide that we want a bigger and better PC, we cannot migrate that license to the new PC. It stays with the original PC.
If I decide that Kindles have fallen behind the technology of other eReaders or they are out of step on price, then I could move to a Sony but my licenses to read the eBooks remain with the original device.
By the way, I despise Microsoft for creating the OEM license concept.

Whether or not it is morally correct for us to ignore an OEM eBook agreement is a more difficult question for me to grapple with than the question of whether or not I should be allowed to remove DRM for the sole purpose of backup.

Of course one of the impressive things about the Amazon deal is that we can have the same eBook on 6 different Kindles - This is a strong attraction in our household of 7 people.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by nowthenmobile

That's a shame. I was hoing to use the McNutt defense in court.

This discussion has been very interesting. Having read all the comments I would have to say that personally I don't see a problem, morally, with removing DRM to enable backup. The question of its legality is beyond me.

Could it be possible that what Amazon (and others) are selling are not eBooks but the license to read eBooks in a circumstance prescribed by Amazon (ie only on a Kindle)? When we buy one of their eBooks we are entering into that agreement? (We always have the choice not to enter that agreement.) If so then it might be helpful to see the situation as being analagous with an OEM Microsoft Windows license. When we buy that license it comes with a given PC. If, some time in the future, we decide that we want a bigger and better PC, we cannot migrate that license to the new PC. It stays with the original PC.
If I decide that Kindles have fallen behind the technology of other eReaders or they are out of step on price, then I could move to a Sony but my licenses to read the eBooks remain with the original device.
By the way, I despise Microsoft for creating the OEM license concept.

Whether or not it is morally correct for us to ignore an OEM eBook agreement is a more difficult question for me to grapple with than the question of whether or not I should be allowed to remove DRM for the sole purpose of backup.

Of course one of the impressive things about the Amazon deal is that we can have the same eBook on 6 different Kindles - This is a strong attraction in our household of 7 people.

Here is what it says on their "terms of agreement"

1. Digital Content

Use of Digital Content. Upon your download of Digital Content and payment of any applicable fees (including applicable taxes), the Content Provider grants you a non-exclusive right to view, use, and display such Digital Content an unlimited number of times, solely on the Kindle or a Reading Application or as otherwise permitted as part of the Service, solely on the number of Kindles or Other Devices specified in the Kindle Store, and solely for your personal, non-commercial use. Unless otherwise specified, Digital Content is licensed, not sold, to you by the Content Provider. The Content Provider may post additional terms for Digital Content in the Kindle Store. Those terms will also apply, but this Agreement will govern in the event of a conflict. Some Digital Content, such as Periodicals, may not be available to you through Reading Applications.

Here is the page.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/custom...deId=200506200

[SeaReader]

Originally Posted by nowthenmobile

Of course one of the impressive things about the Amazon deal is that we can have the same eBook on 6 different Kindles - This is a strong attraction in our household of 7 people.

This is of course not unique to Amazon as the same can be done with Nook and Kobo. Buy the license to read the book once and it shows up everywhere your email address is linked to the Nook/Kobo/Kindle App on different devices.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by nowthenmobile

Could it be possible that what Amazon (and others) are selling are not eBooks but the license to read eBooks in a circumstance prescribed by Amazon (ie only on a Kindle)?

Certainly terms & conditions often mention that the ebooks are licences, not sold.

However, US courts have often been of the opinion that if it's described as a sale, and acts like a sale, then it /is/ a sale, no matter what the small print says.

And all pages in the Amazon Kindle store have "Buy now" buttons. not "Licence now". Once you've bought a book, there's no expectation that Amazon are going to ask you to stop reading the book at some future date. It looks like a sale and acts like a sale.

Of course, the courts might decide differently, if anyone ever took it to court. I can't imaging Amazon ever doing so over an ordinary consumer's use of ebooks.

[Jim Lester]

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

Its not the format but the DRM that is the issue. Apple's version of ePub has its own DRM so it might as well be its own format.

Essentially, there are now 4 serious contenders for DRM'd formats.

...
3. Barnes and Noble ereader ePub. We know B&N will license its DRM to other device makers (works on the Jetbook and Jetbook-Lite at least). It does seem to be limited to B&N for book purchase.

4. Adobe DRM ePub. Since Adobe doesn't sell the books, it is probably the most available to third party stores and is also supported by the Nook (as well as the Jetbooks mentioned above) and most non-Amazon dedicated Readers.

A quick correction ... These are both Adobe DRM. The key protection mechanism used by B&N is a newer variant that is tied to a username and password (B&N uses your credit card number). The support for reading files licensed this way came out in with Adobe RMSDK 9.1 last year. Support for selling these files is going to come out with the next version of Adobe Content Server.

That being said there has been no other RMSDK customer of ours besides B&N that has implemented the necessary workflows needed to view content from B&N on their devices/applications. Unfortunately that also includes Adobe. However the next version of Adobe Digital Editions will include support for reading those files (no I can't say when this will come out).

--
Jim Lester
Engineering Lead - Digital Publishing
Adobe Systems

[nowthenmobile]

I find all of this rather depressing. This could all be so good. The freedom that the eReaders promise is being destroyed by restrictive license agreements. It's such a shame that they can't simply compete in an open market. Obviously if I don't abide by the agreement then there is no problem - the only losers will be those who want to remain completely honest. For Amazon to sell eBooks at prices just below paperback prices gives the impression that they are electronic equivalents of books. Does the phrase "Unless otherwise specified, Digital Content is licensed, not sold, to you by the Content Provider" mean something different than the notion of buying a paperback but not owning the content?

What do you think this means: "solely on the Kindle or a Reading Application"? What is a "Reading Application"? If it means a reading application on a PC then it is surprising that it doesn't say "a Kindle Reading Application". That reading application could be the application on another device.

I know my original comment about bringing Amazon to its knees was dismissed. But, if it were possible for someone to set up a comprehensive ePUB lending library available through a website, then that would drive the eReader technology. (Maybe they could charge you $1 per month to borrow a book.)

I didn't know that the Nook and the Kobo did the 6 device thing. Thanks for that.

[nowthenmobile]

Instead of the "Buy Now" button it ought to say "License now for use only on a Kindle - You have no guarantee that you will be able to read your eBooks beyond the life of your Kindle."
and see if people are still prepared to pay the just below paperback prices.

[=X=]

Originally Posted by nowthenmobile

I find all of this rather depressing. This could all be so good. The freedom that the eReaders promise is being destroyed by restrictive license agreements. It's such a shame that they can't simply compete in an open market. Obviously if I don't abide by the agreement then there is no problem - the only losers will be those who want to remain completely honest. For Amazon to sell eBooks at prices just below paperback prices gives the impression that they are electronic equivalents of books. Does the phrase "Unless otherwise specified, Digital Content is licensed, not sold, to you by the Content Provider" mean something different than the notion of buying a paperback but not owning the content?

Well to be fair the prices are set by the publishers not Amazon. There are many many authors that are pricing their books competitively and are free of DRM. These are the guys to support.

But the publishes have always been against eBooks and set their prices at the same price, and sometimes higher than paper books. Amazon has been the one who has pressured the publishers to drop prices.

What I don't get is if these books are leased, then why don't we get leasing rates. This is the only industry that I've seen where leased product are as expensive or more expensive that the actual product.


[QUOTE=nowthenmobile;1139935]
What do you think this means: "solely on the Kindle or a Reading Application"? What is a "Reading Application"? If it means a reading application on a PC then it is surprising that it doesn't say "a Kindle Reading Application". That reading application could be the application on another device.

Originally Posted by nowthenmobile

I know my original comment about bringing Amazon to its knees was dismissed. But, if it were possible for someone to set up a comprehensive ePUB lending library available through a website, then that would drive the eReader technology. (Maybe they could charge you $1 per month to borrow a book.)

It will eventually happen, Overdrive has been growing and now with the growth of eBooks more and more libraries are adopting eBooks. My local library did not have any ebooks until this year. The selection is meager, but it will continue to grow. And when it does Amazon will have to start working out a deal with Libraries else it will lose the eBook war.

Originally Posted by nowthenmobile

I didn't know that the Nook and the Kobo did the 6 device thing. Thanks for that.

It's not so much Kobo, SONY, nook. It's more Adobe Digital(PDF & ePUB) that does this.

I believe nook is a little different, they have their own DRM (called eReader) that authenticates based on the purchaser's name and Creditcard. So in effect there are no limit on how many devices you install this book on. So if you lend a book out you will also have to give them your name and CC # to enable the book. .
However since the nook ALSO supports Adobe Digital books you can also register your nook to read an Adobe DRM books where the 6 register device limit does apply.

[DiamondDave]

Originally Posted by nowthenmobile

But, if it were possible for someone to set up a comprehensive ePUB lending library available through a website, then that would drive the eReader technology. (Maybe they could charge you $1 per month to borrow a book.)

The Free Library of Philadelphia already does this. They charge $15 a year and anyone can become a member. They also have over 3,000 ebooks (epub and pdf) and are constantly adding more.

http://freelibrary.lib.overdrive.com...en/default.htm

[nowthenmobile]

So if I want to borrow epub do I need to have a non-Kindle ereader or can I install a reader application to my PC and then convert it to a Kindle supported format, like PDF. OR does that involve the removing of a DRM? Do these borrowable ePUBs have DRM?

[nowthenmobile]

Would I be right in thinking that I can read any format eBook on my PC?
If that's the case then the idea of tying eBooks to devices seems a bit temporary - an ePaper display on a device (PDA or tablet) with a Windows OS would give the flexibility without the eye strain.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by nowthenmobile

So if I want to borrow epub do I need to have a non-Kindle ereader or can I install a reader application to my PC and then convert it to a Kindle supported format, like PDF. OR does that involve the removing of a DRM? Do these borrowable ePUBs have DRM?

Library books have DRM which limits the time the ebook remains readable — after the expiry date the reader software will no longer decode the ebook.

To convert formats it would be necessary to remove the DRM (which also removes the time limits). So you'd need to remember when library books needed to be deleted.

[nowthenmobile]

"Kai Lung Raises His Voice, now available (DRM-free) at Amazon and BooksOnBoard"
- How can you tell that it is DRM-free?

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by nowthenmobile

"Kai Lung Raises His Voice, now available (DRM-free) at Amazon and BooksOnBoard"
- How can you tell that it is DRM-free?

Well, because I publish it and made sure of it. :-)

But at Amazon you can tell because in the product details it says:
Simultaneous Device Usage: Unlimited

At BooksOnBoard in the details section is just says "Adobe ePub", which indicates a DRM-free ebook. DRMed ebooks say "Adobe Digital Edition" and have a lock icon next to that text.

[nowthenmobile]

What does it mean on Amazon if there is no "simultaneous device usage" entry?

At BooksOnBoard what does it mean when both Adobe ePub and Adobe Digital Edition are listed.
This is one of their bestsellers:
http://www.booksonboard.com/index.ph...ok&BOOK=601577
It has loads of formats listed, all with a padlock next to it.