The design of the book is breaking!

[A_Rina]

First of all, I would like to say that I am not a native English speaker, so there may be mistakes. But I hope you will understand my problem and help me solve it)

I made an e-book for myself through an InDesign and saved it in Epub format marked "recomposable layout". When opened in Calibre, ebook and ReadEra, the design absolutely breaks! When saving the file to InDesign, I put the cover in jpeg format. When opened in applications, the jpeg cover remains, but then the cover + content also goes, but disassembled into parts! (see attached photo 1-2). In addition, the book background and footers are separated from the text!(3 photos). In addition, it is important that the footnotes in the text still work when repairing the file.

However, if I save a file marked "fixed layout", then the design looks fine. BUT footnotes in the text do not work (see files 4-5) I do not know what to do...Design is an important component for me, but footnotes are also very important. I would like everything to look whole.

[Quoth]

InDesign is primarily for paper.
Create a good styled docx and import to Calibre and convert to epub is better (and if you use odt files on LO Writer with an extra Save As in docx, it's free).

Fixed Layout is like an epub version of PDF, so since InDesign is good for PDF that works. But Fixedlayout doesn't work on many apps, or readers or small screens. PDF is preferable to Fixed Layout epub, but neither makes good ebooks (which must reflow to suit screen).

Footnotes are tricky and there are 3 methods. The snag is there is no "page bottom" in real ebooks. So each footnote needs to be a separate paragraph after a chapter and linked (entire word and [3] etc number so it can easily be tapped. Then the footnote needs to have a link called [back] to the original location. Popup footnotes are unreliable and only some devices/apps.
If it's a short comment of a few words then putting it right justified just after the paragraph works well on ereaders. Some don't have touch screens (even new ones) and then you have to use navigation buttons to the link.

[A short note]

Then the next paragraph.

It's a mistake to too closely replicate paper books unless it's a PDF. Fixed Layout epub is a book-replica format as an alternative to PDF with slightly more user-side flexibility. Really for 10″ or larger screens.

[A_Rina]

Originally Posted by Quoth

InDesign is primarily for paper.
Create a good styled docx and import to Calibre and convert to epub is better (and if you use odt files on LO Writer with an extra Save As in docx, it's free).

Fixed Layout is like an epub version of PDF, so since InDesign is good for PDF that works. But Fixedlayout doesn't work on many apps, or readers or small screens. PDF is preferable to Fixed Layout epub, but neither makes good ebooks (which must reflow to suit screen).

Footnotes are tricky and there are 3 methods. The snag is there is no "page bottom" in real ebooks. So each footnote needs to be a separate paragraph after a chapter and linked (entire word and [3] etc number so it can easily be tapped. Then the footnote needs to have a link called [back] to the original location. Popup footnotes are unreliable and only some devices/apps.
If it's a short comment of a few words then putting it right justified just after the paragraph works well on ereaders. Some don't have touch screens (even new ones) and then you have to use navigation buttons to the link.

[A short note]

Then the next paragraph.

It's a mistake to too closely replicate paper books unless it's a PDF. Fixed Layout epub is a book-replica format as an alternative to PDF with slightly more user-side flexibility. Really for 10″ or larger screens.

Sorry, but it's really hard for me to understand. This must be tedious because you explained in the last post, but I've been doing this very recently and don't understand some points in your answer. Can I use an already made InDesign file and what do I need to do in order for it to open normally? As for footnotes, they are actually endnotes (i.e. they are all at the end of the main text). This Calibre shows as a pop-up footnote, in other applications, when you click, it throws you to the end of the book and back.

[Quoth]

InDesign is a high end rented tool to publish on paper via PDF. It was kludged by Adobe for epub. Fixed Layout epub is a bit like PDF, neither is a real ebook.

As for footnotes, they are actually endnotes (i.e. they are all at the end of the main text). This Calibre shows as a pop-up footnote, in other applications, when you click, it throws you to the end of the book and back.

Endnotes are best as a paragraph each, explicitly linked to and with a link back. Most ereaders, most of the time and most apps will indeed simply work them as any other linked text in a document and won't popup. Calibre Viewer is handy on a desktop/laptop, but it's using a web browser to simulate an ereader. I use it to check system ToC and links.

Only use InDesign for either print replica for large screens (Fixed layout epub3 or PDF) or for paper (via PDF).
Use MS Word or LO Writer (only edit odt, final extra Save As docx) and Paragraph styles for headings, text, footnotes/endnotes (everything). Don't use the built in "insert footnote/endnote", but insert Anchors/Bookmarks at the required places and link to them. 100% reliable. Import Docx to Calibre and convert to epub. You might need to manually edit CSS on any images, but everything else perfect. I've being doing that for 10+ years.
InDesign is really a corporate Desktop Publishing System for PDF/Paper.

If you were doing a text book with a lot of Maths, you might build it in Sigil.

Copy paste the Indesign content to a real wordprocessor, which is normally the start, then that's imported to InDesign for the publishing (but it's rubbish for re-flowable, i.e. real, ebooks.).

While you can have ebook footnotes as endnotes after everything, on an ebook (as with some paper books) endnotes after each chapter can be better if someone doesn't want to go back and forth while reading, which is awkward on some ereaders.

I learnt nearly 30 years ago that it was a mistake to enter text from scratch into a Publishing program rather than a wordprocessor and then import to the publish system. Never type from scratch into InDesign, Sigil, Calibre or any Publishing program/system.

[A_Rina]

Originally Posted by Quoth

InDesign is a high end rented tool to publish on paper via PDF. It was kludged by Adobe for epub. Fixed Layout epub is a bit like PDF, neither is a real ebook.


Endnotes are best as a paragraph each, explicitly linked to and with a link back. Most ereaders, most of the time and most apps will indeed simply work them as any other linked text in a document and won't popup. Calibre Viewer is handy on a desktop/laptop, but it's using a web browser to simulate an ereader. I use it to check system ToC and links.

Only use InDesign for either print replica for large screens (Fixed layout epub3 or PDF) or for paper (via PDF).
Use MS Word or LO Writer (only edit odt, final extra Save As docx) and Paragraph styles for headings, text, footnotes/endnotes (everything). Don't use the built in "insert footnote/endnote", but insert Anchors/Bookmarks at the required places and link to them. 100% reliable. Import Docx to Calibre and convert to epub. You might need to manually edit CSS on any images, but everything else perfect. I've being doing that for 10+ years.
InDesign is really a corporate Desktop Publishing System for PDF/Paper.

If you were doing a text book with a lot of Maths, you might build it in Sigil.

Copy paste the Indesign content to a real wordprocessor, which is normally the start, then that's imported to InDesign for the publishing (but it's rubbish for re-flowable, i.e. real, ebooks.).

While you can have ebook footnotes as endnotes after everything, on an ebook (as with some paper books) endnotes after each chapter can be better if someone doesn't want to go back and forth while reading, which is awkward on some ereaders.

I learnt nearly 30 years ago that it was a mistake to enter text from scratch into a Publishing program rather than a wordprocessor and then import to the publish system. Never type from scratch into InDesign, Sigil, Calibre or any Publishing program/system.

Maybe I did something wrong, but the design is still breaking. If I understood correctly, it was necessary to act according to this algorithm: 1. Create a new file in the Word and transfer everything from the InDesign there. 2. Save it in doc format, then open it in Calibre. 3. In Calibre, convert it to Epub format.
The background that you could previously see in the screenshots is separated from the text.

[Karellen]

Maybe instead of playing around with 3rd party programs hoping for better conversions, wouldn't it be easier to just fix the existing epub?

Originally Posted by A_Rina

The background that you could previously see in the screenshots is separated from the text.

I don't really understand what you mean here. Your previous image in the first post also shows the background separate. Are you saying the text should be on top of the background?

Is your book in copyright? Do you want to post your book so we can see what the actual problem is? At the moment we are just guessing.

[Quoth]

Save docx, not doc. They are quite different!

Also the paragraph styles need to be created /set, that won't be automatic, between 1 and 2. Calibre creates the CSS from the style set for a paragraph (includes headings, basically ANY text terminated by <enter key>). The HTML is based on the content of the paragraph/heading.

Also a true ebook can't have a background! It won't work on most ereaders or apps, even if it can be got to work in a desktop preview!

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Karellen

Maybe instead of playing around with 3rd party programs hoping for better conversions, wouldn't it be easier to just fix the existing epub?

The OP was creating the epub in InDesign. Which is the wrong place to start.

A properly styled docx converted by Calibre to epub is going to be better than an epub made by InDesign.

[A_Rina]

Originally Posted by Karellen

Maybe instead of playing around with 3rd party programs hoping for better conversions, wouldn't it be easier to just fix the existing epub?


I don't really understand what you mean here. Your previous image in the first post also shows the background separate. Are you saying the text should be on top of the background?

Is your book in copyright? Do you want to post your book so we can see what the actual problem is? At the moment we are just guessing.

Yes, you understand correctly that the text should be on top of the background (picture in pastel colors)! When saving in a fixed Epub layout, the layout appears as intended. But, as the first commentator correctly pointed out, this is rather a cast (?) file similar to a PDF, in which footnotes do not work (see screenshot 5 in the very first post). Blue blocks should also be on top of the background, but should not obscure the text. As for publication, I'm not sure what I can publish. I'm not very strong on copyright issues, but some illustrations from the letters and explanations that are located on the site about Van Gogh were used. It is freely available and in fact the letters are cultural heritage, but I am not sure that I can publish them as an e-book. I made a book for myself and my friends and had no plans to distribute it anywhere...

[A_Rina]

Originally Posted by Quoth

The OP was creating the epub in InDesign. Which is the wrong place to start.

A properly styled docx converted by Calibre to epub is going to be better than an epub made by InDesign.

It turns out that I need to make a docx file with different styles, but remove the entire design and upload it to Caliber, and then convert it to Epub in the application? But what about headers and footers? (can we call them that? They're those blue bars with years in the corners) Should they be given the "Header and Footer" style? They are important for later indicating the years in the table of contents.

[Turtle91]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Also a true ebook can't have a background! It won't work on most ereaders or apps, even if it can be got to work in a desktop preview!

Thought I’d poke my head in here and be a little pedantic….

There is no such thing as a “true ebook”… any book that is delivered in an electronic format is an ebook. If you want to argue that you can’t perform some function with a specific format on a specific reader, then your argument might hold some weight… but it is very obvious that it is very possible to have a background in an ebook. Check out W3School for an example of the proper css.

[Quoth]

A true ebook works on any size screen and reflows. Usually the user can set at least the font size. Often margins and linespace and font can be changed.

An electronically delivered book was never the same as an ebook. Word, Wordstar, Wordperfect can be used to deliver a book. PDF is the most common print preview, DJVU is similar. They are electronic and can be delivering ebooks. But page size is based on a paper size, not viewport or screen. Normally you can only zoom in/out the entire page.
A PDF is not and never was an ebook. Thus while epub3 and Kindle formats can deliver real ebooks, fixed layout (FXL) Kindle or epub3 are not "real" ebooks. Print replica are not real ebooks. They are books in electronic storage/format.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by A_Rina

It turns out that I need to make a docx file with different styles, but remove the entire design and upload it to Caliber, and then convert it to Epub in the application? But what about headers and footers? (can we call them that? They're those blue bars with years in the corners) Should they be given the "Header and Footer" style? They are important for later indicating the years in the table of contents.

Only print replica such as FXL or PDF or DJVU has headers and footers. Real ebooks don't have headers and footers from the ebook, though the app or reader GUI might generate simple headers and footers.

You design using paragraph styles in Word or LO Writer. Even things that look like lists should not use "list" direct format, but be suitable indented / hanging paragraph styles with list bullets or number or letters typed, as ereaders don't support all the list features of a web page or wordprocessor. Paper would use multiple page styles and size important. Only one default "paper size" with no headings or footers for ebooks.

Headings, chapter text, section text, footnotes etc are all simply paragraph styles (set heading level to 1 or 2 for chapters) and use no more than 1, 2 and 3 for heading levels. Any other heading should be body text level because of limitations of ebook system Table of Contents generated from heading levels and just look like a heading.
Your own custom inline contents page can have anything you like by bookmarking (anchor) at start of destination line and making that contents (or appendix) text a link.

All ebooks have a separate system Table of Contents brought up by GUI of ereader or app. This is automatically created by calibre from a docx, and if there are page breaks for level 3 headins then a line in Calibre conversion dialog needs changed under Structure Detection
Default is

//*[((name()='h1' or name()='h2') and re:test(., '\s*((chapter|book|section|part)\s+)|((prolog|prologue|epilogue)(\s+|$))', 'i')) or @class = 'chapter']

For three levels

//*[((name()='h1' or name()='h2' or name()='h3') and re:test(., '\s*((chapter|book|section|part)\s+)|((prolog|prologue|epilogue)(\s+|$))', 'i')) or @class = 'chapter']

Use Tablet as "Page Setup" in Calibre as it doesn't change images

Many ereaders/apps only do a page break on a start of file. Do put Insert Page Break Before (without picking a style) in paragraph style of any text using levels 1, 2 or 3 if a page break is required, but on the docx conversion to epub by calibre the structure detection splits the book to separate HTML files inside the epub (which is just a zip folder) and puts all the docx styles in a single CSS file.

So your ebook design/layout is the style properties for each part of text (any text inc headings, chapters, preambles, footnotes that is separated by the <enter key>.

Disable hyphenation and don't insert soft hyphens as the wordprocess page size is irrelevant to real ebooks and ereaders/apps mostly do their own hyphenation.

All white space and justification styles is by paragraph style properties. Never enter more than one space (search for 2 and replace with 1 till none found!), never use tabs, never enter blank lines. All those appearances are done in paragraph style properties.

I usually use an A5 page size or similar for ebooks. When the content is throughly proofed & edited I make a copy of the file, or paste each block style to a new template, for PDF. The PDF version of the document has multiple page styles such as: front matter, contents, left body, right body, start of chapter, end matter etc. Each style can have its own header & footer, page number system etc, or none. Look at any paperback novel or text book. The PDF page styles all have specified paper size for the print crop size and suitable margins/padding for binding, outer edge, top, bottom and gutter if columns.

Then if it's a book, simply PDF export. The InDesign only needed for newspapers, magazines etc. A PDF export sent to printing /POD operator will produce paper exactly as your PDF and Word (for maybe 20+ years, older versions needed a PDF printer or PDF plugin) and LO Writer can both produce perfect PDF files for publishing. If you need equations or similar then the epub work flow needs Sigil and MathML and epub3. A PDF version might use LaTex in the work flow.

Avoid tables in epub. They might not work. For example on an epub using alternate styled sequential short paragraphs works better than a table with two columns. Test on Lithium or PocketBook or Bluefire apps on a phone with a small screen to see what happens to images and tables. More than 1/2 ebooks are read on a phone. You can get some idea by also making the desktop viewer window (with TOC etc off) approximately phone sized. I test websites that way to, using "responsive" design that works on a 4.3″ phone or 4K monitor full screen.

Most people hate PDF, DJVU, Print Replica / FXL, as it mostly only works on decent resolution 10″ or larger tablets in portrait and might be awkward to unusable on many smaller laptops and Chromebooks that can only be used in landscape. Only PDF, DJVU, Print Replica / FXL etc can reliably have a background and it will annoy anyone using eink or a phone (most ebooks are on phones).

[Quoth]

Also when publishing PDF OR epub, the cover is always uploaded separately. Never put the cover into the docx. After importing a docx to Calibre via add, go to "Edit Metadata" and browse for the cover. This will be used by Calibre when sideloading for test to a phone, tablet or ereader. But upload of the epub to Smashwords/D2D (for Apple, Kobo, Tolino, Scribd, Barnes & Noble's Nook etc), Amazon KDP and Google's PlayStore Books, will have separate upload of a high resolution image and manual entry of all the Metadata.

Upload of PDF for POD or other paper publishing usually wants a full wrap cover image (including spine and rear). That is often TIFF at 300 dpi or more and they will tell you what size it is based on paper weight and page count. This can be calculated. Then also the metadata is entered.

Actual ebooks don't need an ISBN as that's really for bookshops ordering and their POS. With a TIFF cover for a PDF you can add it if you have bought a block of ISBNs (free in Norway?). If the Printer/POD supplier is doing the ISBN, they will be listed as publisher and they tell you what white space to leave. Many bookstores will not stock Amazon paper editions.
You can send same epub to Amazon, Smashwords (for Apple, Kobo, Tolino, Scribd, Barnes & Noble's Nook etc) & PlayStore as long as it's regular KDP, not for KU release. A PDF is not so simple as Amazon, Lulu, D2D, Print24 etc all might have different rules on how crop works, allowance for binding, outer margin, vs full bleed and might not have the same page sizes.

There is no page size on "real" ebooks. The ebook reflows to fit app window or ereader screen.

[A_Rina]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Also when publishing PDF OR epub, the cover is always uploaded separately. Never put the cover into the docx. After importing a docx to Calibre via add, go to "Edit Metadata" and browse for the cover. This will be used by Calibre when sideloading for test to a phone, tablet or ereader. But upload of the epub to Smashwords/D2D (for Apple, Kobo, Tolino, Scribd, Barnes & Noble's Nook etc), Amazon KDP and Google's PlayStore Books, will have separate upload of a high resolution image and manual entry of all the Metadata.

Upload of PDF for POD or other paper publishing usually wants a full wrap cover image (including spine and rear). That is often TIFF at 300 dpi or more and they will tell you what size it is based on paper weight and page count. This can be calculated. Then also the metadata is entered.

Actual ebooks don't need an ISBN as that's really for bookshops ordering and their POS. With a TIFF cover for a PDF you can add it if you have bought a block of ISBNs (free in Norway?). If the Printer/POD supplier is doing the ISBN, they will be listed as publisher and they tell you what white space to leave. Many bookstores will not stock Amazon paper editions.
You can send same epub to Amazon, Smashwords (for Apple, Kobo, Tolino, Scribd, Barnes & Noble's Nook etc) & PlayStore as long as it's regular KDP, not for KU release. A PDF is not so simple as Amazon, Lulu, D2D, Print24 etc all might have different rules on how crop works, allowance for binding, outer margin, vs full bleed and might not have the same page sizes.

There is no page size on "real" ebooks. The ebook reflows to fit app window or ereader screen.

Yes, I already guessed that the cover needs to be uploaded separately, and not done in a file. To tell the truth, I did the text with levels and styles already in InDesign (yes, I know that you have written many times that this is not the best option. But it is very difficult to transfer all the text to docx, and then assign styles and levels to them. In fact, you will have to redo the entire layout) and everything is OK with it. The main problem that I would like to solve is precisely the frontispiece (the page with the quote and portrait) and the content. I need it to break at least visually correctly. I can't understand why it breaks. In addition, apparently the flyleaf (blue pages) will also have to be removed.