Ethics and legalities of format shifting

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

And that is against the law, at least in the EU, and also punishable.
In addition, any change to the file is a violation of copyright law and a conversion from xxx to yyy means a file change.
And even if it isn't discovered, it doesn't change the facts.

Violating the copyright law is not piracy. Piracy is obtaining or distributing a file illegally, not the possibility of doing so, but the fact of doing so. Again you're mixing up two different things.

[MarjaE]

Suppose you need certain control options, screen sizes, e-ink, screen reader software, etc. I don't need screen readers, you may not need e-ink, etc. But a lot of people will need something similar.

You finally find a combination that more-or-less works for you. You buy a book, and find it doesn't work with these. Should you repair the book or request a refund?

Is it different if it's just incompatible formatting, like a dmm-free pdf which relies on layers and newer image formats?

Is it different if you can read it when you buy it, but due to illness or injury, you can't keep reading it without switching to another format and/or another device? A bit late to ask for a refund!

If readers have to request refunds and stop buying some ebooks, instead of repairing them, that doesn't help the authors, or the publishers, or the readers.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

Also very easy. If you read on two different types of devices (e.g. Kindle and Kobo), you need two different files - thus two licenses. And if you only bought one, then you withhold the amount for the second.Simply by removing DRM for whatever reason, redistribution is made possible.
And that is against the law, at least in the EU, and also punishable.
In addition, any change to the file is a violation of copyright law and a conversion from xxx to yyy means a file change.
And even if it isn't discovered, it doesn't change the facts.

In the UK, it is legal to format shift.

Copyright law has been changed to allow you to make personal copies of media (ebooks, digital music or video files etc) you have bought, for private purposes such as format shifting or backup.

Before this change to the law, it was not legal to copy music that you bought on a CD onto your MP3 player. The changes, which apply from 1 October, update copyright law to make this legal, as long as you own what you are copying, e.g. a music album, and the copy you make is for your own private use.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

In the UK, it is legal to format shift.

UK is not part of EU.
And where is the source for this claim

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by Quoth

No, you have a distorted view of EU Copyright law.
Also DRM is nothing to do with copyright.
Contracts, terms and conditions may not all be legally enforceable.

In the EU, copy protection (DRM) is part of copyright law

The actual form of the content, (audio, text, images, video) and storage medium it's delivered on to you is irrelevant to copyright law. You can't give or sell copies to a third party. You can compost your own copy.

Yes, but I am not allowed to change it, which means that I can copy an epub onto a Kindle, but the Kindle cannot do anything with it.
I am also allowed to copy a backup of this file to another Adobe authorized device - but at best this shows garbage, if anything, or an error message.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

Yes, but I am not allowed to change it, which means that I can copy an epub onto a Kindle, but the Kindle cannot do anything with it.
I am also allowed to copy a backup of this file to another Adobe authorized device - but at best this shows garbage, if anything, or an error message.

The law may not allow it, but it's certainly possible to do it. You claimed in the previous thread that it can't be done. Of course it can be done. It's your business if you want to scrupulously obey the law that directly harms your interests as a customer, not permitting you to back up your purchases among other things. For example, if Adobe shuts down its servers one day, so much for your DRMed epubs. They become unreadable. You're claiming you're independent while actually you're anything but. You're totally dependent on big corporations like Amazon and Adobe for keeping your purchased books accessible to you.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

Also very easy. If you read on two different types of devices (e.g. Kindle and Kobo), you need two different files - thus two licenses. And if you only bought one, then you withhold the amount for the second.Simply by removing DRM for whatever reason, redistribution is made possible.

And if the file is not DRMmed? I don't know about the ebooks you buy but the majority of the ones I purchase are not DRMmed. And I do notice that several publishers such as Baen and Tor make their books available in multiple formats with only one purchase necessary.

So when I download a ebook from Amazon in mobi, azw3, KFX and AZK, I need to purchase three more copies to allow downloading on those platforms?

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

And that is against the law, at least in the EU, and also punishable.
In addition, any change to the file is a violation of copyright law and a conversion from xxx to yyy means a file change.
And even if it isn't discovered, it doesn't change the facts.

Perhaps you should re-read copyright law? Or take a quick course in plagiarism. Considering that Kobo routinely makes changes to the files to add the mass of spans required by kepub files and no publisher has yet complained might suggest that you don't know what you are talking about. Or even to use your favourite rant about DRM, an Adobe or Amazon DRMmed file has been changed from the original.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

In the UK, it is legal to format shift.

No, it isn't.

The article you have quoted from is from 2014. In 2015 the change it mentions was overturned by judicial review.

It is illegal to format shift in the UK.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Perhaps you should re-read copyright law? Or take a quick course in plagiarism. Considering that Kobo routinely makes changes to the files to add the mass of spans required by kepub files and no publisher has yet complained might suggest that you don't know what you are talking about. Or even to use your favourite rant about DRM, an Adobe or Amazon DRMmed file has been changed from the original.

With permission from the copyright owner.

Which you don't have to remove the DRM or format shift.

I fully accept that in the country I live in, it is illegal for me to convert an Amazon-sourced eBook to read on another reader, as it is illegal for me to rip a CD to mp3. I do not in anyway accept that this makes either of them unethical, which is the other half of the thread title, and I intend to continue doing both of them.

As a practical matter, unconnected to ethics, is it clear that no one will ever be prosecuted for doing either.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

The law may not allow it, but it's certainly possible to do it. You claimed in the previous thread that it can't be done.

I cannot have said that because I know that it is possible, albeit through illegal detours.
The only legal way to do this is to take photos of the pages shown on the reader.

not permitting you to back up your purchases among other things. For example, if Adobe shuts down its servers one day, so much for your DRMed epubs. They become unreadable.

You can backup it, but not change it - and backups that have not been changed can be read on the authorized device.
If Adobe shuts down the servers, you can still read the purchased license on the authorized device or app.
Because you haven't bought anything else.

You're claiming you're independent while actually you're anything but. You're totally dependent on big corporations like Amazon and Adobe for keeping your purchased books accessible to you.

I was only dependent on it at the time of purchase.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

If Adobe shuts down the servers, you can still read the purchased license on the authorized device or app.

But you can no longer authorize a new device. So if your old device breaks or wears out, that's it. You won't be able to read your epubs any longer. The same goes for Kindle books. They're keyed to a specific device or app. So if Amazon drops their ebook business or goes out of business altogether, you will be able to read your Kindle books only as long as your device they're keyed for lasts. Yes, I admit, either scenario is not likely to happen any time soon. Still, as long as your books have DRM, you're not independent.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

But you can no longer authorize a new device. So if your old device breaks or wears out, that's it. You won't be able to read your epubs any longer. The same goes for Kindle books. They're keyed to a specific device or app. So if Amazon drops their ebook business or goes out of business altogether, you will be able to read your Kindle books only as long as your device they're keyed for lasts. Yes, I admit, either scenario is not likely to happen any time soon. Still, as long as your books have DRM, you're not independent.

I didn't pay for that either.
I've only paid for a license to read a file on the device(s) authorized with my account (Adobe 6, Tolino 5, Amazon - I donot know).

[pdurrant]

Perhaps some references would be useful to the discussion of what is or is not legal.

In the USA, the relevant legislation is the Digital Millennium Copyright Act
In Canada, it's the amended Copyright Act of 1985
In the UK it's the amended Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988
In the EU it's the relevant national government implementation of Directive 2001/29/EC of 22 May 2001.

In all these cases, circumvention of technological measures for personal use is a civil infringement, with many exceptions. The copyright holder would need to take the infringer to court, and show that none of the many exceptions applied, and (I think) that there were actual damages.

Ethically, I see nothing wrong in removing DRM for personal use.

[hildea]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

With permission from the copyright owner.

Which you don't have to remove the DRM or format shift.

Well, sometimes we do I'm looking at a book now which says:

All rights reserved. Where such permission is sufficient, the author grants the right to strip any DRM which may be applied to this work.

Originally Posted by murraypaul

I fully accept that in the country I live in, it is illegal for me to convert an Amazon-sourced eBook to read on another reader, as it is illegal for me to rip a CD to mp3. I do not in anyway accept that this makes either of them unethical, which is the other half of the thread title, and I intend to continue doing both of them.

As a practical matter, unconnected to ethics, is it clear that no one will ever be prosecuted for doing either.

I fully agree. (Well, I'm not sure it's illegal in Norway. The last time I read about it, the legalities were undetermined, but that's several years ago.)

Are there anyone except ottischwenk who think DRM removal and format shifting is unethical?

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

I didn't pay for that either.
I've only paid for a license to read a file on the device(s) authorized with my account (Adobe 6, Tolino 5, Amazon - I donot know).

You said you were independent of any one corporation or business. You're not. You depend on them to keep their servers up and their apps working. Whereas I can read my books on anything capable of displaying text.

It's fine if you don't want to future-proof your purchases. Many don't. What isn't fine is to make unfounded claims and call other people stupid, shills, thieves, pirates and embezzlers because they have different priorities than you.