Getting back to paper books...

[leebase]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Except make copies and sell the copies.
The thing is if I sell you my truck, I no longer own that truck And ior the book or the tiara pan that came with a cake mix years ago.

And -- physical items deteriorate. You get exact, pristine, can't tell them from the original copies with digital file.

In essence, one person could buy the book, then sell it infinitely.

Even library books degrade.

Guess what you must do to a digital file to give it some of the properties of a physical object? That's right, you add DRM. But nobody likes that either.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by leebase

And -- physical items deteriorate. You get exact, pristine, can't tell them from the original copies with digital file.

In essence, one person could buy the book, then sell it infinitely.

Even library books degrade.

Guess what you must do to a digital file to give it some of the properties of a physical object? That's right, you add DRM. But nobody likes that either.

I have a few books from the early 1900's that are almost pristine and I have some 2000's books that look like they have been through a wringer washer a few times.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

I have a few books from the early 1900's that are almost pristine and I have some 2000's books that look like they have been through a wringer washer a few times.

Yes, the anecdote complete makes the counter point.

Seriously, folks. Put yourself in the producer's position. How much labor and materials do you put into making a car? And the second, third and 10,00th "copies" of that car.

Does that compare to copying a digital file? You know...as in a real "copy", something you can't even do with a physical object.

Just imagine if you COULD copy your car. Who'd buy a car when they could get one for free from "Fred". Fred is the guy who bought the car. Fred made copies just for his friends and family. But you know....it's a CAR!

So the friends and family have other friends and other family. And before too long some "cars should be free" nut puts an infinite supply of copies of that car on the internet.

Nobody would make the first car under that scenario.

[Difflugia]

Originally Posted by leebase

So the friends and family have other friends and other family. And before too long some "cars should be free" nut puts an infinite supply of copies of that car on the internet.

Nobody would make the first car under that scenario.

Unless, of course, there were a system whereby one's livelihood isn't tied to the scarcity of what they produce. Then, people that enjoy designing cars could design them without starving and nobody would have to forego a car because they can't meet the artificially inflated price (after all, in your scenario, each car has a zero marginal cost to produce, so any cost is artificial).

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Difflugia

Unless, of course, there were a system whereby one's livelihood isn't tied to the scarcity of what they produce. Then, people that enjoy designing cars could design them without starving and nobody would have to forego a car because they can't meet the artificially inflated price (after all, in your scenario, each car has a zero marginal cost to produce, so any cost is artificial).

With ebooks, there are no limits to how many can be sold.
With objects, there is a finite number of originals.
Depends on how many they produced.
Example: DeLorean vs the Ford Mustang.
Which was easier to get new in 1981, 82 or 83?

[crane3]

The power outage while I was reading reminded me why I no longer buy printed books. Still was able to continue to read the ebook while power was down for around 1 hr.

p.s. isn't "ebook" a legitimate word yet & not a misspelling?

[barryem]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

The ebook reselling presents more of a problem since the ebook never wears out (and a car and regular book does). It would cripple an author's ability to make any money unless the reseller always paid something to the original artist.

I think this ignores one of the important changes brought about by ebooks, the long tail. Publish a paper book and in a few months or a year at most it goes out of print and you get no more income from it. Publish an ebook and it might generate at least some income for the rest of your life. Publish both and every resale of the paper book can introduce a new reader to your future work as well as to your older work.

Barry

[barryem]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

The thing is if I sell you my truck, I no longer own that truck or the book or the tiara pan that came with a cake mix years ago.

Whille that is a valid difference it's a small difference since most of us won't ever re-read most of the books we buy anyway. So keeping them (or a copy of them) has little value or no value.

And if you could keep your truck when you sell it, would you? Isn't the usual purpose of selling a vehicle as much about getting rid of it to make room. And can you afford the extra insurance and upkeep if you had the new one and a copy of the old one?

Barry

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by barryem

I think this ignores one of the important changes brought about by ebooks, the long tail. Publish a paper book and in a few months or a year at most it goes out of print and you get no more income from it. Publish an ebook and it might generate at least some income for the rest of your life. Publish both and every resale of the paper book can introduce a new reader to your future work as well as to your older work.

Barry

That is the big difference. Of course, for midlist and up authors, they re-release books every 7 years or so. Once they get enough of a backlist catalogue, they get a decent revenue stream. This particular model has been around for a while and is fairly well understood. The ebook model isn't quite as well understood, so it generates anxiety for the authors. They worry about piracy and their backlist losing value. (Jerry Pournelle use to call his backlist, his 401K plan).

From a consumer point of view, I love the ebook model. When I find a new author that I like, I can quickly snarf up that author's complete catalogue. It seems obvious to me that in the long run, it's going to help authors, but then again, I'm not the one betting my livelihood on it.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

That is the big difference. Of course, for midlist and up authors, they re-release books every 7 years or so. Once they get enough of a backlist catalogue, they get a decent revenue stream. This particular model has been around for a while and is fairly well understood. The ebook model isn't quite as well understood, so it generates anxiety for the authors. They worry about piracy and their backlist losing value. (Jerry Pournelle use to call his backlist, his 401K plan).

From a consumer point of view, I love the ebook model. When I find a new author that I like, I can quickly snarf up that author's complete catalogue. It seems obvious to me that in the long run, it's going to help authors, but then again, I'm not the one betting my livelihood on it.

I'd venture to guess that most midlisters don't really consider it a "decent" revenue stream. It's a revenue stream, but many midlisters have day jobs and continue to have them even when they have a backlist. Many midlisters have a second income stream from a spouse as well. Decent is nice, but the amount of money authors make is vastly overestimated.

[Witty Username]

If I'm buying fiction or text-only books then I want ebooks. I only use paper books for handcrafts now because I find the patterns/charts/diagrams are easier to use and read on paper.

I also find that reading fiction on paper hurts my finger now as I first tap, then jab more forcefully at the book to turn the page.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by Difflugia

Unless, of course, there were a system whereby one's livelihood isn't tied to the scarcity of what they produce. Then, people that enjoy designing cars could design them without starving and nobody would have to forego a car because they can't meet the artificially inflated price (after all, in your scenario, each car has a zero marginal cost to produce, so any cost is artificial).

So, what's the business model you are proposing? Who is going to pay the author for creating "books" if it's not those who read the book?

[barryem]

Ebooks are still new enough that we don't really know what effect they're going to have on reading and writing and publishing. Everyone (including me) keeps trying to figure that out. But it's still very early days.

Historically writers have let publishers worry about the money end of things and they've just focused on the writing. The qualities that make a good artist don't always make a good business man. Not that an author can't be a good businessman, but they shouldn't have to be. A lot of writers aren't but that never mattered a lot in the past. I think it matters more today, because of ebooks and self publishing. The better businessman is as likely to succeed as the better writer. That might not be a good thing for readers.

On the other hand, the long tail might make new authors less important in the future. How many books is enough?

Barry

[Katsunami]

I have some hardcovers left over here. They all provide something that an e-book can't: large full color illustrations, or a text that is not available as an e-book.

Some time ago, I decided to read The Hobbit in paper; the fully illustrated hardcover version I have. The only thing I can say is that I was happy to start reading on an e-reader again, and that I'm going to get a stand for when I start reading The History of Middle Earth. (Three hardcovers that combine 12 books in total. They are HUGE.)

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

I'd venture to guess that most midlisters don't really consider it a "decent" revenue stream. It's a revenue stream, but many midlisters have day jobs and continue to have them even when they have a backlist. Many midlisters have a second income stream from a spouse as well. Decent is nice, but the amount of money authors make is vastly overestimated.

Decent as in some extra bucks in your pocket on a regular basis. My guitar teacher use to get royalty checks every quarter for various recording work he did. No it didn't let him go out and buy a new car every year, but it generally was the difference between living paycheck to paycheck and having a bit of a cushion.

Of course, you get into the debate of who a midlister is as well. I tend to think that a midlister is someone who sells enough books that they don't need a day job, but not enough to be set for life. If you never sold all that many copies on the first printing, odds are pretty good that you aren't going to sell many backlist books. Authors who write 3 or 4 books, but none of them sell well aren't really what I'm talking about.