How Barnes & Noble Came Back From Near Dead

[Tony1988]

Originally Posted by Cactus Chef

It came back from near dead by becoming a freaking toy store that sells books on the side. I am not sure that's a great thing.

WTH are you talking about??? First they have been selling games and toys for at least 25 years. Second they have way more books than novelty items there. At my local BN people buy other items all the time. It definitely does not hurt their business since books are not the big sellers they once were...

I don't see why people have such an obnoxious viewpoint towards this???.

[DuskyRose]

Originally Posted by Tony1988

I don't see why people have such an obnoxious viewpoint towards this???.

I don't know about obnoxious, but for me it comes down to shelf space. They sell other items that take up space where books could be, it cuts down on books they can offer.

We had a new B&N open up in our mall last year or so, and I've been through it once. They did have a lot of items by the cash registers that weren't books, but knick-knacks and children's toys. There were games and other items spread throughout, in the center isles.

I can see the need for the extra income, but it seems like they're focusing too hard on the side items. Watching, people were browsing the books but not actually coming away with much in hand.

They have the latest book in a series, but not any of the earlier copies. So, many of the books wouldn't be picked up by those looking to start one. The Scifi Section was pretty much three shelves. The fantasy was much larger, and all Urban-Fantasy-Academy-Harry-Potter types. And those were only the lastest in a series.

Very few science books. Very, very few craft books.

I walked out with nothing, as did most of those who left around the same time I did. I haven't been back since, although I've walked past it a few times now.

Shelves of toys, games, and knick-knacks push out the shelf space for books, and not carrying the first in a series means more people will leave without that 8th book, because it means nothing to them.

More book space, and some better choices on stock, and they might do a lot better.

[issybird]

How many people are walking through B&N, phones in hand, shopping the book shelves and ordering through Amazon? I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the toys etc. subsidize the books, i.e., for occasions when you need something right now.

People get the bookstores they deserve. A town near me has a wonderful bookstore of the old type, esoteric titles, staff recommendations, etc. And I know it’s because the people there don’t go home and order online.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by rcentros

Not originally. B. Dalton was originally started by Bruce Dayton, one of the family in the Dayton's Department store chain...

Yeah, but come on. 1986. Effectively B. Dalton was a B&N subsidiary since even my old self was a regular customer. Complaining about how B&N closed the smaller B. Daltons to replace them with the larger B&N stores just seems silly.

Same for Waldenbooks/Borders.

I'm even more nostalgic about the home town independent book stores that couldn't compete with Barnes & Noble. They mostly went out of business well before B. Dalton's and Waldenbooks.

Yeah, I used to enjoy shopping at The Upstart Crow in Long Beach's Shoreline Village and Dodd's Bookshop. But really I had mostly stopped shopping at those places in favor of used bookshops and Super Crown well before B&N came along.

And if you listen to the news, indie bookshops are the new hotness. So give it a few minutes and one will be open in your neighborhood.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by issybird

How many people are walking through B&N, phones in hand, shopping the book shelves and ordering through Amazon?

People get the bookstores they deserve. A town near me has a wonderful bookstore of the old type, esoteric titles, staff recommendations, etc. And I know it’s because the people there don’t go home and order online.

Yes, exactly.

Honestly a forum of ebook readers griping about how modern bookstores suck feels like a bunch of 'get off my lawn' complaining.

[olderTechnology]

I love ebooks, but also paper books. I have a rule. If I learned about the book in a physical bookstore, I buy the book from the physical bookstore. What's a few dollars to show that you appreciate them stocking it for you?

[Tony1988]

Originally Posted by issybird

How many people are walking through B&N, phones in hand, shopping the book shelves and ordering through Amazon? I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the toys etc. subsidize the books, i.e., for occasions when you need something right now.

People get the bookstores they deserve. A town near me has a wonderful bookstore of the old type, esoteric titles, staff recommendations, etc. And I know it’s because the people there don’t go home and order online.

EXACTLY. People complaining about stupid stuff like the fact they sell some things other than books. Yet the people complaining don't even buy books there or get it off Amazon for $1 cheaper...lol. My BN is a nice place. I appreciate the fact that they have a ton of books and than other stuff I can buy. Especially around Christmas. Bought my niece a Lego set there a couple years ago have bought puzzles and game also. Did a lot of Xmas shopping there.

[DuskyRose]

Originally Posted by Tony1988

EXACTLY. People complaining about stupid stuff like the fact they sell some things other than books. Yet the people complaining don't even buy books there or get it off Amazon for $1 cheaper...lol

Some may not, but I don't think that that's always the problem.

I haven't bought anything there in a long time because there wasn't anything there I wanted to buy.

Hardly any scifi, hardly any fantasy, hardly any first in series... Lot's of Young Adult stuff, which is probably what actually sells. But I can't say I've seen a lot of people walk around checking prices out on their phones.

I don't see a lot of people walking out with the knick-knacks either. Ones you can get at most of the check-outs in the mall already.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Yeah, but come on. 1986. Effectively B. Dalton was a B&N subsidiary since even my old self was a regular customer. Complaining about how B&N closed the smaller B. Daltons to replace them with the larger B&N stores just seems silly.

I guess it depends on your age. I was 30 in 1986 and had been going regularly to bookstores from my early teens. So I remember home town book stores and B. Dalton, Waldenbooks and Pickwick in the malls, pre-B&N and Borders.

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Yeah, I used to enjoy shopping at The Upstart Crow in Long Beach's Shoreline Village and Dodd's Bookshop. But really I had mostly stopped shopping at those places in favor of used bookshops and Super Crown well before B&N came along.

And if you listen to the news, indie bookshops are the new hotness. So give it a few minutes and one will be open in your neighborhood.

When I lived in Ventura I used to haunt the used bookstores. They had two big ones downtown. Once or twice weekly I went to Bart's Books in Ojai. I loved that store. But I also went to Waldenbooks and/or B. Dalton fairly regularly. I think there was a new bookstore on Main Street in Ventura, but I don't remember going there much. I think they were kind of specialized, in specialties I didn't care about. But it's been a while, can't remember for sure.

When I lived in Washougal, I used to go down to Powell's Bookstore in Portland fairly regularly.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by Tony1988

WTH are you talking about??? First they have been selling games and toys for at least 25 years. Second they have way more books than novelty items there. At my local BN people buy other items all the time. It definitely does not hurt their business since books are not the big sellers they once were...

I don't see why people have such an obnoxious viewpoint towards this???.

I think it probably depends on how big the store is and how big the market is. In Boise the Barnes & Noble (a huge store) basically got rid of the music and video/games departments, which left a lot of extra room. And, though they've tried to "fill it up" by getting rid of a lot of the shelves and widening the aisles, it still feels like if you yelled it would echo. Not that the store is empty, it's just huge.

Not all their fault. In Barnes & Noble's heyday, they probably had 10 rows of computer books, now they have one and a half. Not much they can do about that. Very few people buy paper computer books now. And I'm guessing they have the same issue with other departments.

My kids like B&N — the youngest likes the Legos and other toys (they have stuff that's hard to find elsewhere), and the next one up likes the manga comic books because they do tend to have the whole series in this store. So, I think, Barnes & Noble has to sell what they can sell. When I go there (not that often) I like to look at their self-published stuff, often their own hardback versions of public domain books — or their "coffee table" picture books. Sometimes I'll get something (like vintage cars) for my father.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by rcentros

I guess it depends on your age. I was 30 in 1986 and had been going regularly to bookstores from my early teens. So I remember home town book stores and B. Dalton, Waldenbooks and Pickwick in the malls, pre-B&N and Borders.

Don't get me wrong. I remember them as well. My point was that they were subsidiaries of B&N and Borders and existed for years and years. They weren't 'run out of business' so much as they were replaced by larger versions of those same stores.

Locally, B&N opened a megastore at the mall, but Waldenbooks maintained a very large store too. Eventually it closed and people blamed B&N but the truth was it closed when Borders opened their own megastore across the street from the mall.

When I lived in Washougal, I used to go down to Powell's Bookstore in Portland fairly regularly.

I went to visit my niece in Portland and went to Powell's and I guess this is something ebooks took away from me. I enjoyed walking around Powell's. It was a great store. But I knew I wouldn't be buying anything. It was a little like going to a store a friend is interested in and you are not. Like if I went to a baseball card store. It might be neat to look around. But there wasn't anything there for me.

The display I spent the most time on was the Timbuk2 bags.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Don't get me wrong. I remember them as well. My point was that they were subsidiaries of B&N and Borders and existed for years and years. They weren't 'run out of business' so much as they were replaced by larger versions of those same stores.

Having the same ownership is not "being the same store." The experience was completely different for me. When I went to mall with my wife B. Dalton was like an oasis within the mall. A place to escape from the noisy crowds for a bit. Going to Barnes & Noble was more like something I planned. They were both book stores, but they were completely different. I liked the way B. Dalton (and Waldenbooks) could crowd so many books in a relatively small space.

[Critteranne]

Originally Posted by DuskyRose

They have the latest book in a series, but not any of the earlier copies. So, many of the books wouldn't be picked up by those looking to start one. The Scifi Section was pretty much three shelves. The fantasy was much larger, and all Urban-Fantasy-Academy-Harry-Potter types. And those were only the lastest in a series.

Our B&N stores changed the SF/fantasy section so that it was organized by subgenre. The science fiction books were in one area, the fantasy books were in one area, and the urban and dark fantasy books were in the next area. When I first went back after they remodeled the area, I thought, "Wow, they don't have a lot of SF books here."

Yes, class, Anne was looking at the new fantasy section instead of walking around about 10 or 15 feet and finding the other part of the shelves.
Luckily, they started labeling the sections. People have gotten used to it, and I definitely see people browsing those areas.

I'm not crazy about stores separating SF and fantasy (and separating fantasy into urban and dark fantasy). Some books are hard to classify. Also, books often get misshelved because they "look" like fantasy when they are really SF. But maybe it works better for most shoppers?

[Critteranne]

Originally Posted by Renate

I never dug those café/bookstores.
I just hated the mess and piles of books everywhere and people wandering with drinks.

I used to love serious bookstores, academic or foreign.

I rarely see people wandering with drinks in a bookstore with a café-- they keep their books in the café area. Most people would be too nervous about spilling the drink and having to pay for the books. Yes, you will always have screwups, but you have them everywhere, not just in bookstores.

The B&N that I visit the most often removed most of the seating except in the café area. Borders used to have chairs and tables all over (not just the café). And that's where people would leave books on tables, etc. (OTOH while the staff members hate that, they also hate it when customers misshelve the books.) But it looks like most bookstores cut back on the "islands" of seating.

I am also not crazy about shopping in a "serious" bookstore that doesn't at least have a place where I can sit down and look at a potential purchase. They don't have to have a café, but they should at least have a place for serious readers to decide between books. Also, they should remember that some people can't stand for very long without taking a break.

For example, a B&N opened up near us without a café, and on their grand opening day, a staff member had to go get a folding chair for an elderly customer who had trouble staying on his feet for long periods. They do have a few nice chairs in other areas -- but I'm not sure if they added them after the grand opening.

I have come to like the atmosphere in bookstores that have cafés. I'll take it over those indie bookstores that pride themselves in never having genre fiction.

[Gardenman]

Originally Posted by Critteranne

I rarely see people wandering with drinks in a bookstore with a café-- they keep their books in the café area. Most people would be too nervous about spilling the drink and having to pay for the books. Yes, you will always have screwups, but you have them everywhere, not just in bookstores.

The B&N that I visit the most often removed most of the seating except in the café area. Borders used to have chairs and tables all over (not just the café). And that's where people would leave books on tables, etc. (OTOH while the staff members hate that, they also hate it when customers misshelve the books.) But it looks like most bookstores cut back on the "islands" of seating.

I am also not crazy about shopping in a "serious" bookstore that doesn't at least have a place where I can sit down and look at a potential purchase. They don't have to have a café, but they should at least have a place for serious readers to decide between books. Also, they should remember that some people can't stand for very long without taking a break.

For example, a B&N opened up near us without a café, and on their grand opening day, a staff member had to go get a folding chair for an elderly customer who had trouble staying on his feet for long periods. They do have a few nice chairs in other areas -- but I'm not sure if they added them after the grand opening.

I have come to like the atmosphere in bookstores that have cafés. I'll take it over those indie bookstores that pride themselves in never having genre fiction.

The B&N in my area used to have 20 seats in the book area. Last time I was there they had none.