"fan fiction "......

[Yapyap]

Yeah, agreed. I mean, that sort of thing isn't what fanfic is about, by and large. There are other types which copy the source material to any relevant degree, e.g. rewritings of specific canon scenes from another character's point of view, which may quote actual canon dialogue and is essentially rewriting a particular part of the original, but again, that's also just a rather small part of fanfic.

I was a bit surprised by the pastiche thing, actually - with US copyright law, I've only ever seen the mentions of parody, and parody seems to be quite a bit more specific / more narrowly definable than pastiche.

[spindlegirl]

I've never run across the plagiarism type stories before. Now, those I can understand being illegal.

But stuff along the lines of "what if so and so didn't really die? What if he is trapped somewhere hoping to get back to his long lost lover and upon finding her, discovers she has married his rival and has 2.5 kids?"

I've never personally seen anything wrong with stuff like that.

[Harper Kingsley]

Ooh, found these two articles. I read them way back when, but forgot about them. They're pretty good, though old:
Copyright 101: A Brief Introduction to Copyright for Fanfiction Authors - http://www.whoosh.org/issue25/lee1.html
Fanfiction, Novels, Copyright, and Ethics - http://www.whoosh.org/issue62/ecks2.html

Here's some other stuff
Lois McMaster Bujold - http://fanlore.org/wiki/Lois_McMaster_Bujold
OTWs FAQ - http://transformativeworks.org/faq/legal
This one made me think. Why didn't Stephanie Meyer sue EL James? - http://kittyb78.wordpress.com/2012/0...ion-vs-novels/
links to Cezperanza (sp? I know her, but can never spell her name ) - http://www.squidoo.com/fanfiction-stories-archive
Oh No They Didn't - http://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com...ad=11861741141

Fanfiction: A Form of Flattery or a Form of Infringement - http://themidnightnovelist.wordpress...-infringement/

I separated that last one because it talks about "Fifty Shades of Grey" by E.L. James. I'm sorry, my personal opinion is that James should not have been able to profit off the work. Why, considering the names are changed and it's in a different setting? Because the fact that it was fanfiction was used as a marketing ploy.

If no one had ever known that it was fanfic, I'm sure the story wouldn't have done nearly as well. But James already had a big fanfic following, then was like "Look, it's becoming a real book. Tell everyone to buy it!" And things blew up from there.

I could grab up all my fanfic, change some names and some settings, and probably make a good go of it, but that's just crossing the line to me. Does anyone else think that there's going to be big trouble in the future, or am I just paranoid?

[Harper Kingsley]

Originally Posted by spindlegirl

But stuff along the lines of "what if so and so didn't really die? What if he is trapped somewhere hoping to get back to his long lost lover and upon finding her, discovers she has married his rival and has 2.5 kids?"

I love the what-if? stories. Right now, Coulson surviving is blowing up the Internets, or at least Avengers fandom. It's just so sad when a loveable character is killed off -- you want to give them a second chance or at the very least an awesome back story.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by Harper Kingsley

I separated that last one because it talks about "Fifty Shades of Grey" by E.L. James. I'm sorry, my personal opinion is that James should not have been able to profit off the work. Why, considering the names are changed and it's in a different setting? Because the fact that it was fanfiction was used as a marketing ploy.

If no one had ever known that it was fanfic, I'm sure the story would have flopped. But James already had a big fanfic following, then was like "Look, it's becoming a real book. Tell everyone to buy it!" And things blew up from there.

I could grab up all my fanfic, change some names and some settings, and probably make a good go of it, but that's just crossing the line to me. Does anyone else think that there's going to be big trouble in the future, or am I just paranoid?

I haven't read it and it doesn't sound like something that I would want to read, but from what I understand the only thing that it had in common with Twilight were the names. Now it has nothing in common, so why is it fanfic?

And I don't understand why you complain about the following. It proves that people are still willing to pay for what they like even if they already had it for free.

[Harper Kingsley]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

I haven't read it and it doesn't sound like something that I would want to read, but from what I understand the only thing that it had in common with Twilight were the names. Now it has nothing in common, so why is it fanfic?

And I don't understand why you complain about the following. It proves that people are still willing to pay for what they like even if they already had it for free.

I don't know, it just feels kind of icky to me. I would have been fine with her stripping the fanfic label and changing all details like she did and putting it out as an original story if she hadn't touted it as fanfic first. But it was marketed as "Twilight fanfic" and that really just turns me off right there.

She could have just quietly agreed if asked, but to go yelling from the rooftops that it wasn't even just fanfiction, it was "Twilight fanfiction" kind of scares me. She used the fame of Twilight as a stepping-stone to the big leagues, and though she's trying to strip the label off now, it's too late.

It's like making a Coke-like product and marketing it as "Wonderbrau: Coke2," later changing the name to just "Wonderbrau" or something after it's already gotten fame as the Coke-a-like. I don't think Pepsi started out as "Pepsi Coke Jr" is what I'm saying.

If a fanfic that becomes an original piece already has a fan-following, that's one thing. You drop the stories off the Net, rework your stuff, then bring it forward as an original piece, to stand or fail on its own. You can tell your friends that it was originally "Master of the Universe" or whatever and maybe word gets around, but you don't yell it yourself. I've known several fanfic authors that disappeared that way, off to publish their own stuff, and it makes me upset those stories are gone, but it is what it is.

The 50 Shades approach was to notify the world at large that it was originally fanfic, which caught peoples' outraged attention. A lot of people bought the book because they were mad, which racketed it up the sales ranks and caught the attention of the general public. From there it blew up.

Great marketing plan, sure, but it just seems skeazy to me personally. I mean, there's a lot of AU fanfics that are so awesome they should be their own original fiction. But most fanfic authors have the kind of morality that maintains the "not for profit" label, no matter that there's nothing to trap a story in the original fandom. Instead, the author leaves the story as-is and turns to a different original work.

[khalleron]

Originally Posted by Harper Kingsley

Great marketing plan, sure, but it just seems skeazy to me personally. I mean, there's a lot of AU fanfics that are so awesome they should be their own original fiction. But most fanfic authors have the kind of morality that maintains the "not for profit" label, no matter that there's nothing to trap a story in the original fandom. Instead, the author leaves the story as-is and turns to a different original work.

Well, yeah, but. . .

What's borrowing and what's original? If LMB (since she was brought up earlier) admits that Simon Illyan was borrowed from Illya Kuryakin of The Man from UNCLE, is that bad? Is it OK because she admits it? Is it OK because she's a 'real' writer?

The thing is, everyone borrows. I loved Spindlegirl's AU plot - "what if so and so didn't really die? What if he is trapped somewhere hoping to get back to his long lost lover and upon finding her, discovers she has married his rival and has 2.5 kids?"

because I thought, 'Oh, you mean The Count of Monte Cristo?'

Everyone borrows - a good writer dresses up what they borrow in new enough clothes that no one notices, or if they do, they don't care. Borrowing is particularly rife in genre fiction, because every genre has some accepted tropes that nearly everyone uses (even if the usage might be turned on itself). If you write a hard-boiled detective or a spaceship captain or a swashbuckling adventurer, are you stealing?

I can't imagine anyone saying that you are - or if you riff on a particular type of character that you may have met on TV or in a comic book or a novel. What makes it 'original' is if you've put your own stamp on the work, if you put enough of YOURSELF into it. Whatever you draw from the well of stories is yours to work with - it's what you do with it that makes it good or not.

[spindlegirl]

Originally Posted by khalleron

The thing is, everyone borrows. I loved Spindlegirl's AU plot - "what if so and so didn't really die? What if he is trapped somewhere hoping to get back to his long lost lover and upon finding her, discovers she has married his rival and has 2.5 kids?"

because I thought, 'Oh, you mean The Count of Monte Cristo?'

True story, I have not yet even read The Count of Monte Cristo, despite having downloaded it from Project Gutenberg.

[khalleron]

Originally Posted by spindlegirl

True story, I have not yet even read The Count of Monte Cristo, despite having downloaded it from Project Gutenberg.

It's a great book. Read it as soon as you can.

[Harper Kingsley]

Originally Posted by khalleron

What makes it 'original' is if you've put your own stamp on the work, if you put enough of YOURSELF into it. Whatever you draw from the well of stories is yours to work with - it's what you do with it that makes it good or not.

I have no problem with someone reworking their fanfic into an original story and selling it. It makes me personally feel uncomfortable, but that's just me. But most writers might say they were "inspired by" something or other, they don't come out and say "This is my reworked Harry Potter fanfic. Notice how my main character is a super smart girl that some people call a know-it-all and her lover is a very snarky gentleman in pharmaceuticals?"

The first time I heard about 50 Shades, it was someone sending me an article from the Guardian about how E.L. James had gotten a million dollar deal for her Twilight fanfiction after it had already been published by a small press. Then the bigger publisher came in and scrubbed the past away, something that should have been done before it was professionally published by anyone.

Meyer has been very cool about it, but she could have pursued legal action. I don't know, for trademark infringement at the least? If she had done that, it could have opened up a whole barrel of trouble for all of fandom. Stricter laws could have cracked down at the very least, and the thought of it makes me very uneasy, since I love the current freedom of fanfic.

And now that James has gotten away with it, tons of people that never knew about fanfic before are trying their hand at writing it, not for the enjoyment of fandom, but to make a fortune. It's only a matter of time before a legal horror story pops out.

Other links of interest:
Dear Author - http://dearauthor.com/features/indus...es-comparison/
Cracked - http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-tips-t...o-best-seller/
This is the whopper "There was a conversation she had with another very well-known writer in the community how she intended to 'cash-in' on the fandom" in the comments - http://dearauthor.com/features/indus...comment-356725

[spindlegirl]

Originally Posted by khalleron

It's a great book. Read it as soon as you can.

I just now decided I like MR's version better, (so I just downloaded that one) and will put it on my list as soon as one of the others has been done.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by Harper Kingsley

I don't know, it just feels kind of icky to me. I would have been fine with her stripping the fanfic label and changing all details like she did and putting it out as an original story if she hadn't touted it as fanfic first. But it was marketed as "Twilight fanfic" and that really just turns me off right there.
[...]
The 50 Shades approach was to notify the world at large that it was originally fanfic, which caught peoples' outraged attention. A lot of people bought the book because they were mad, which racketed it up the sales ranks and caught the attention of the general public. From there it blew up.

Great marketing plan, sure, but it just seems skeazy to me personally. I mean, there's a lot of AU fanfics that are so awesome they should be their own original fiction. But most fanfic authors have the kind of morality that maintains the "not for profit" label, no matter that there's nothing to trap a story in the original fandom. Instead, the author leaves the story as-is and turns to a different original work.

All marketing plans are skeazy. This one was based on telling the truth so it makes it less so. I don't see how lying by omission would have made this moral to your eyes.

Originally Posted by Harper Kingsley

And now that James has gotten away with it, tons of people that never knew about fanfic before are trying their hand at writing it, not for the enjoyment of fandom, but to make a fortune. It's only a matter of time before a legal horror story pops out.

That would take the "fan" out of "fanfic".

[pshrynk]

Originally Posted by Harper Kingsley

It's like making a Coke-like product and marketing it as "Wonderbrau: Coke2," later changing the name to just "Wonderbrau" or something after it's already gotten fame as the Coke-a-like. I don't think Pepsi started out as "Pepsi Coke Jr" is what I'm saying.

Actually, on CBS Sunday Morning yesterday, one of the segments was on the Coke bottle and its rise to icon status. They made the bottle to differentiate Coke from all the copy cats out there in 1916. Things like Soka Cola. They didn't specifically mention Pepsi, but it was one of the competition back then...

[Harper Kingsley]

Originally Posted by pshrynk

Actually, on CBS Sunday Morning yesterday, one of the segments was on the Coke bottle and its rise to icon status. They made the bottle to differentiate Coke from all the copy cats out there in 1916. Things like Soka Cola. They didn't specifically mention Pepsi, but it was one of the competition back then...

That's cool. Coke is iconic. I could see a Coke product from a mile away through a pair of scratched up binoculars and be like "Is that a Coke?"

[Harper Kingsley]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

All marketing plans are skeazy. This one was based on telling the truth so it makes it less so. I don't see how lying by omission would have made this moral to your eyes.

The biggest problem isn't the fact that it started out as fanfic. The original copyright page showed her fanfiction name and the original title. "This story was previously serialized as 'Masters of the Universe' by Ice Dragon's Queen" or whatever her name was. Right there in the print, her story is tied to Twilight fandom.

It's nice that the consumer is being told the origins and that they're not buying the original -- though considering the stories are 89% similar and the only real differences are the name changes, the physical description changes, and some minor editing. It's really just the same story repackaged, which is fine, not the issue.

The issue is that characters are copyright protected. Considering the amount of people that are able to recognize Ana/Bella and Christian/Edward, Meyer can take James to court at any time. Just because she has chosen not to at this time, doesn't change the fact that she can wait until James amasses large quantities of money, then demand all proceeds. And if she were to die, her heirs have 70 years after her death to file any paperwork. The fact that it was right on the label of James' first print edition doesn't help her case at all.

Even if no litigation ensues, it just doesn't feel right to me to publish fanfic for profit, which is why I have chosen not to do it. Other people have made other decisions, and that's their business, but they usually strip the fanfic label off, rewrite the story, and by the time they're all done the characters and stories are completely different. They send their stories out to rise or fail on their own merits, not riding on the coattails of someone else's hard work.

So my personal feeling is that I don't really like the idea of what E.L. James did. And if Meyer doesn't do anything about it, a lot of people will take advantage of the situation and more and more people will try their hand at using fandom for profit, and at some point it will blow up. There are just some authors you don't mess with, and J.K. Rowling is one of them. She has no problem pounding nails flat with her lawyer.