generative design and ebooks

[RF1]

Hello,

I am a visual artist, I often read ebooks and I am now trying to experiment with the epub format as an artist. I have done several digital artworks with p5.js so I'm not afraid of coding, but I'm not sure the epub format can achieve what I want to do, this is why I ask your help (maybe ingenuously for the sigil community used to create ebooks).

I would like to create a generative ebook using the full possibilities of the reflow specificities. Is it possible to shuffle the chapters order each time the file is opened ? Also, is it possible to gradually change the style of the pages during the reading (maybe using the generated page number value as an increment ?). It could be used to change the font color, the font size, ... while reading, making the ebook a dynamic evolving object. I know I am trying to do what people usually try to avoid when making an ebook, but i think it could be very interesting. I'm pretty sure this could be achieved on a webpage or a computer program but it would be easier to share it as a real ebook on ereaders.

Do you think I could do that with sigil ? Thank you for your help

[phillipgessert]

None of that is possible for ebook, and if it were, you wouldn’t be able to rely on it actually behaving that way on the device vs favoring the reader’s preferences. This is the sort of thing that’s better suited to an app.

[JSWolf]

@RF1 what you want to do is best done as an app.

[RbnJrg]

Yes, it is perfectly possible by using javascript (epub3). Except for changing the order of the chapters, with javascript you can change everything. Maybe you could play with the function Math.random() and to change font-size, margins, colors, font-family, background colors, etc, etc, etc. And as each time the Math.random() Is called will give different numbers, you can use them to change styles.

[Notjohn]

A few years ago Amazon had a great flurry about animated Kindle editions. It died out very quickly. I don't think the option was ever released into the wild; the only such books were published by Amazon itself.

[RF1]

Thanks for your feedback !
I'm going to find out about Kindle Animated Books.
Javascript is the base of the p5.js library I am used to ; I wonder if by importing the Html code of a program written in this language into Sigil it could run it as an epub file.
I know it would be easier on a web page, but the idea would be rather to query the book form than just text as a stream.

[KevinH]

Much is possible in epub3 since it supports javascript. Remember to enable Javascript in Sigil Preferences, then restart Sigil.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by RF1

Thanks for your feedback !
I'm going to find out about Kindle Animated Books.
Javascript is the base of the p5.js library I am used to ; I wonder if by importing the Html code of a program written in this language into Sigil it could run it as an epub file.
I know it would be easier on a web page, but the idea would be rather to query the book form than just text as a stream.

There's nothing to find out, about KIM (Kindle in Motion/aka Animated Books). It was a private, closed system; used on a handful of books, literally, only and then put away. Never distributed to the spine/backbone of formatters, etc. that make eBooks for Amazon, so...it's moot. Those were basically javascript apps, not eBooks, that ran inside a wrapper that allowed them to work on about 30% of "Kindle" devices/readers.

It's been done now for two years, if not longer.

Hitch

[RF1]

Originally Posted by Hitch

There's nothing to find out, about KIM (Kindle in Motion/aka Animated Books). It was a private, closed system; used on a handful of books, literally, only and then put away. Never distributed to the spine/backbone of formatters, etc. that make eBooks for Amazon, so...it's moot. Those were basically javascript apps, not eBooks, that ran inside a wrapper that allowed them to work on about 30% of "Kindle" devices/readers.

It's been done now for two years, if not longer.

Hitch

That's too bad, it could have been a way to open the epub format to art experiments...

I need to learn about the javascript possibilities in epub3.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by RF1

That's too bad, it could have been a way to open the epub format to art experiments...

I need to learn about the javascript possibilities in epub3.

Well, enjoy but you may want to take a minute and figure out what that really means. Just because X is supported in ePUB3 does not mean that it's supported in this reader or that one or that it will work anywhere at all. There are exceedingly few ePUB3 readers that are just rockin' along. Yes, sure, KDP can accept and does process ePUB3, but don't for a nanosecond think that means that you can write js for it. You can't, pretty much.

And the same is true for almost all the others. The App Formerly Known as iBooks, ruined name-wise by the Idiots at Apple, has some very limited animation, etc. capabilities. Then you get to desktop readers like Azardi, et al and seriously, how many people use those? I use Azardi for proofing fixed-layout and that's about it.

Honestly, just thinking about reflowable formats, with "changeable" animation elements...urgh. Better you than I. If it were me, I'd be considering apps, not eBooks, for what it sounds like what you wish to do.

Not only do you have a bigger playground, by far, but earnings-wise, that ground isn't as plowed with failure and very very very cheap offerings.

Hitch

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by phillipgessert

This is the sort of thing that’s better suited to an app.

Originally Posted by phillipgessert

None of that is possible for ebook, and if it were, you wouldn’t be able to rely on it actually behaving that way on the device vs favoring the reader’s preferences.

Originally Posted by Notjohn

A few years ago Amazon had a great flurry about animated Kindle editions. It died out very quickly. I don't think the option was ever released into the wild; the only such books were published by Amazon itself.

There were only 28 books released, then it died.

Last time we discussed "Kindle-in-Motion" was:

• 2018: "Automatic change of coded HTML Entities into special chars in Sigil 0.9.9 upon saving"
• 2019: "(sigh), Kindle/KPF format Blues..."
  
  • Especially see my Posts #82+#87 where I link to many of these other "interactive ebook" failures over the decades (even back to the 1990s). The Digital Reader wrote about dozens and dozens of those as they appeared (and then died a year or two later).

Originally Posted by Hitch

There's nothing to find out, about KIM (Kindle in Motion/aka Animated Books). It was a private, closed system; used on a handful of books, literally, only and then put away. [...]

It's been done now for two years, if not longer.

Yep. I second everything you say.

[Hitch]

"Look, up in the sky! It's a movie--nope, wait, it's a book! Nope, wait...it's neither!"

And there she goes. To my way of thinking, it's the single largest problem. I own two of the KIM eBooks. Yeah, sure, they're nice with all...whatever, ten (10) (?) moving animations but they're hardly The Daily Prophet.

I remember when video was first available for ebooks. OMG OMG OMG, everybody had to have it. For about 10 seconds and then when they found out that it didn't sell a single extra copy of the ePUB...I honestly don't think we've been asked for video, outside of one (1) surgery training book, in ten years now. And even in that, they're linked, not embedded.

[shrug]. Offered FWIW.

Hitch

[Quoth]

An app.
Support for js is in the epub3 spec as well as other stuff best only done in apps or in a browser.
Actual ereaders apps mostly only do a subset of epub3, if at all. Most eink readers sold (by volume) don't do epub3 at all and the few that do, only do a subset. Most eink does any animation poorly and few have colour (max about 4,000 variations compared to 32,000 to 16,000,000+ on other screens).

Slightly more than 1/2 of ebooks are read on apps rather than eink, but screen size varies from about 4" to 13" for phones and tablets.

Many feature in epub3 do little for books and some features needed by books are not in it. It was created when epub management was folded into the group that manages HTML & CSS for browsers, so lost focus on books.

Video, interaction, animation and even colour etc is best done using a free off the shelf frameworks for iOS and Android Apps.

Anything needing a fixed layout or a minimum screen size is often needing a 8″ or larger tablet.

There are three or four epub3 enthusiasts here content to produce content that won't work for about 95% of people that buy ebooks with English (Amazon has over 92% of the English ebook market and epub is only an upload format for them that gets converted to mobi, azw, azw3, and KFX for the actual Kindle or app that a customer has).

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Quoth

An app.
Support for js is in the epub3 spec as well as other stuff best only done in apps or in a browser.
Actual ereaders apps mostly only do a subset of epub3, if at all. Most eink readers sold (by volume) don't do epub3 at all and the few that do, only do a subset. Most eink does any animation poorly and few have colour (max about 4,000 variations compared to 32,000 to 16,000,000+ on other screens).

Slightly more than 1/2 of ebooks are read on apps rather than eink, but screen size varies from about 4" to 13" for phones and tablets.

Many feature in epub3 do little for books and some features needed by books are not in it. It was created when epub management was folded into the group that manages HTML & CSS for browsers, so lost focus on books.

Video, interaction, animation and even colour etc is best done using a free off the shelf frameworks for iOS and Android Apps.

Anything needing a fixed layout or a minimum screen size is often needing a 8″ or larger tablet.

There are three or four epub3 enthusiasts here content to produce content that won't work for about 95% of people that buy ebooks with English (Amazon has over 92% of the English ebook market and epub is only an upload format for them that gets converted to mobi, azw, azw3, and KFX for the actual Kindle or app that a customer has).

And honestly...I believe that the querent would be far, far far happier with what s/he could do in an app than an eBook, especially given the limited outlet options. I mean...here's an example I use all the time--you can design, sketch, envision, create a couture dress. You can do that for the Charlize Therons of the world. But when push comes to shove, if the dress is being sold as a sample (common in the modeling world) or even a limited OOR (off the rack) release, you can't control whose body that dress ends up being worn on and you may find that all that effort...well. Possibly wasted a bit?

Suffice to say, I once had a moment, standing next to a designer of some repute, when he went to an event and saw one of his couture creations on a lady of a certain age and general appearance, etc. and honest-to-crap, he made a sound like Chewbacca on his deathbed.

Just sayin'.

Hitch

[Quoth]

I think there is market for special sunglasses that go dark when you'd otherwise see dress violations. I forget the proper word. I find visiting town or the shopping mall scary.